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46 replies
Equality is dead
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Equality is the most played out of U.S./Western ideals. Great in principle, laughable in reality. When we say we value equality what do we really mean? What do we want it to mean?

My view is equality is an ideal to be applied to opportunity. That is, everyone should have the opportunity to try whatever they want (assuming it doesn’t hurt anyone else). Whether it’s an occupation, a food, an identity, whatever. Equality is not an ideal to be applied to outcomes. You might be terrible at a job, that food might kill you if you are allergic, your identity might be offensive. It’s not up to others to ensure that your outcomes are good and equivalent to the outcomes of others.

Similarly, equality does not apply to starting points. There was a discussion on here recently (racist stamps? nigger?) that I think devolved into people arguing about how anyone should be able to use slang terms if they are acceptable to the group they identify. But that assumes equality of starting points, of which there is none. Why is it ok for a Black person to say "nigger" but not a White person? Because these people are not equal (and whining about it doesn’t make a difference).

On another board, some women in a photo unrelated to their appearance were described as "striking." Several guys objected, saying that this objectified them. Other guys responded, complaining that there would be no outcry if men were similarly obectified. A classic example of equality gone bad. Men and women are not equal (in this sense). What it means to talk about a women’s appearance is often different than what it means to talk about a man’s. People do not occupy the same niches and we should not pretend that they do.

(obligatory positiveman disclaimer: I’m not saying people can’t move or become more equal on qualities like intelligence. No support here for the Nazi breeding programs.)

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I’m gonna dig myself a deeper hole and take a plunge.

I’m just arguing about men-women. We don’t have the same body. We don’t have the same anatomy. There’s things women can’t do, like carry heavy things above our head cause of the shoulder thing, but we can do things below our hips men can’t do. There’s nothing wrong in that and acknowledging it doesn’t have to do with macho attitudes. Why are we then applying for equal job opportunities? My job in OK city required heavy lifting and some asshole couldn’t understand why we would often ask for help. And someone mentioned the case about the criminal in trial who was in custody of a female cop, and he pulled out of his grip, took her gun and shot the judge.

There was a huge scandal months ago about a woman playing soccer, she was so good she wanted to join the men’s league. After careful consideration, the confederation said no, and every girl in town yelled "discrimination". Come on, why not stay in women’s league?? Because it’s not as big as men’s league. Then, if she’s so good why not make women’s league a bigger deal? Gave it the merit it deserves? I find it discriminating that she would apply for the men’s league because the women’s league was not big enough for her. But feminists here in Mexico can’t even give a reason other than just shouting out discrimination. For every argument there has to be a base.

Think about it, she said she didn’t want the priviledge of a soccer room for herself because she was just a player. That’s fine with her, but did she consult with the guys? What if one made a grab at her boobs for showing them off? And what about guys that were educated in an old fashion way, playing like gentlemen so as not to hurt her? Does this make any sense? She’s got a point of view, but what about the rest of the team? Isn’t team playing what it’s supposed to be?

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And what if she grabbed a guys dick during soccer play????

Isn’t that the only reason she wants to play in a men’s league???? She’s just a horny little beatch like Michelle Wie!!!!!

I am leaving from Chicago, IL with $2000 for 17 days
Paris, Nice, Arles, Barcelona, Valencia, Seville, Madrid
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Jester, I am soooo with you on this.

Equality doesn’t mean we have to be the same. It means we are equal. It means women should have the same economic and political freedoms as men. It does not mean that men and women are the same. Women voting and running for office is great. But women firefighters? Come on.

I was reading a really good reader’s response in the Economist magazine, written by a woman…she was lashing out at her fellow women for considering themselves the better sex. She was saying how it’s totally acceptable for women to consider themselves the better and smarter sex (while it’s totally unacceptable for men to do this), how many women glee when a man fails at something or can’t do something, and that these women are no different than the male chauvinists they despise.


beach-lunch-siesta-beach-shower-dinner-nightlife-repeat

Jester
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quote:
and that these women are no different than the male chauvinists they despise.

Right on….

And let me debate the topic, can something that was never born nor existed… die??? There’s never been equality.

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quote:
And let me debate the topic, can something that was never born nor existed… die??? There’s never been equality.

Too true, even Jefferson didn’t practice what he preached in the Declaration of Independence.

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quote:
Women voting and running for office is great. But women firefighters? Come on.

I’m intrigued. Why not women firefighters??

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Jester, don’t even get me started on father’s rights.

Tinsie, you’re in a burning building. Who would you rather rescue you? Two 200-lb men, or two 120-lb women? Granted, there are plenty of men that are also unfit for the job (whether unfit or too old or whatever), but the pool of women eligible for the job is MUCH smaller. Unless you’re this woman here: http://www.owow.com/… let’s be serious. The idea of women firefighters floated in the 1970s, and failed. Some women refuse to acknowledge physical differences between the sexes.

Men don’t have a problem with physical differences. I don’t want to ovulate. I don’t want to menstruate. I like being a guy.


beach-lunch-siesta-beach-shower-dinner-nightlife-repeat

Jester
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Oh, speaking of father’s rights, don’t you just looooooooooove that holier-than-thou "we have the gift of life" attitude??? Well, the gift of life ain’t anything without the sperm!!!!! It’s not like we can concieve by ourselves (there are theories, but until I concieve, they are only fairytales to me).

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quote:
Tinsie, you’re in a burning building. Who would you rather rescue you? Two 200-lb men, or two 120-lb women? Granted, there are plenty of men that are also unfit for the job (whether unfit or too old or whatever), but the pool of women eligible for the job is MUCH smaller.

Personally I’d rather be rescued by however has the ladder to get me out of the window in my bedroom (because that’s where I’ll be if I’m awake – and if I’m not, I’ve probably already died of smoke inhalation and there’s b*gger all your 120-lb man can do). Firefighting isn’t about having big muscles, it’s about having a brain that you can use to protect yourself and others, stamina and reasonable physical strength – I don’t know what kind of firefighting programmes you watch on TV, but in real life firefighters don’t walk into burning homes and carry people over their shoulders. As such I don’t think the idea of women firefighters is that absurd.

quote:Men don’t have a problem with physical differences. I don’t want to ovulate. I don’t want to menstruate. I like being a guy.

Mmm… and the point of this statement is what, exactly? I don’t want to have something dangling between my legs, and don’t even get me started on wet dreams and involuntary erections. I don’t have a problem with physical differences either, I love being a girl, and never wanted to be a guy – in fact if I ever have children I don’t even want a son.

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More on Chyna, as mentioned in LTBs post :

http://www.something…

The last link under the horror accurately depicts true horror.

re: equality :

What about hitting a woman, no worse than hitting a man?

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quote:Men don’t have a problem with physical differences. I don’t want to ovulate. I don’t want to menstruate. I like being a guy.
————————————————————————————————————————
Mmm… and the point of this statement is what, exactly? I don’t want to have something dangling between my legs, and don’t even get me started on wet dreams and involuntary erections

lol Tinsie. Amen, sister.

Whenever this topic comes up, the refrain ‘can’t we all just get along’ comes to mind. Instead of a male/female agenda, look at the human race, and human rights, ya know what I mean?

Luv, what’s your take on Father’s Rights? I am all for them, have testified in favor of the dad twice in court, but have seen some horrid custodial battles in my day, am watching 3 different ones right now, none of which have the dad coming off well at all. They seem less interested in their kids, and more interested in punishing mom.

Our preschool class took a field trip to the firehouse last year. We met a female firefighter; I asked her about training. She looked quite strong; she said she had to perform twice as well as the guys and they gave her a hard time every single step of the way. But she was not bitter, she was just glad she made it, and hoped the other firefighters would accept her.

No, there never was equality, and has been infighting even within the groups that have fought for equality—Frederick Douglass supported a woman’s right to vote, and then the women’s sufferage groups let him down when it came to the same right for blacks.

I think it is still a man’s world. And there are parts of that world that I have absolutely no interest in entering. Men and women need the occasional break from each other.
It’s just too bad that right now it seems that so many people care only about their own agenda, but maybe this will change.

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quote:
re: equality :

What about hitting a woman, no worse than hitting a man?

It depends who’s doing the hitting and for what reason. If you’re on the receiving end of hitting as a form of punishment (i.e. from someone stronger than you who knows you can’t defend yourself and uses his or her fists to intimidate you) then in my book this is wrong irrespective of who does the hitting and who’s hit.

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I agree pretty much completely with the original post(feel kind of bashful actually having been mentioned..)

I have another angle on this as well: I think nowadays we have a FAITH in equality, not only equality of opportunity, but of worth, of VALUE. Looked at over the broad stretch of history, I think this faith in equality is a spiritual holdover from Christianity(the sould, etc..), and was spread irrevocably more or less from the French Revolution. The US Civil War and the two world wars pretty much put a seal of permanence on it – it being the idea that we are in fact all equal. And it is my opinion that precisely this cultural WEAKNESS will destroy us in the long run, or at least lead to some new global catastrophe..

I was reading an article this morning about the Germanic Siegfried/Nibelungen sagas.., and was simply struck by how utterly weak our culture is today. Libralism(THE democratic political embodiment of a faith in actual equality), as I have said before, is a cancer, and thus a weakness. Whether in ancient Greece or Rome, or in the Norse sagas, or for that matter, and most importantly, NATURE, life seems to have always been a very tough and WARLIKE thing. And so it should be. So, I know there’re all kinds of loose ends here, but I’ll just finish by saying that our culture is rotten and weak precisely because its aim is equality, and not what it should be – GREATNESS.

That said, given that we live in the world as it is, I agree with your post. Equality of opportunity is a given. The stupidity is that we cave in to the idea of equality of inherent worth, and that as a result of weakness. Does anyone else see a paradox here? Equality of opportunity in an inherently competitive world, the result of which will ALWAYS be unequal..

One more point, something I was thinking about last night after arguing with some friends about German politics.. How many of you consider yourself at least fairly liberal, yet despise Hollywood movies? I know it’s a strange question, but it’s so typical for liberal-types to act so arrogantly righteous(see Bob Geldoff) in the name of equality, yet to use only one examply, is anything more democratic than a stupid Hollywood blockbuster? You know, the more people you want to appeal to, the dumber your message has to be. Hitler of course knew this. Hmm, got an idea for a new post..

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I dont consider myself anything politically but I do loathe Hollywood movies.

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quote: Whether in ancient Greece or Rome, or in the Norse sagas, or for that matter, and most importantly, NATURE, life seems to have always been a very tough and WARLIKE thing.

A comment – this is an oft-mistaken view of Nature, "red in tooth and claw." It is a claim made by people who want to see war. In fact, Nature has given us cooperation, and it is present in many animal species. Looking to our closest relatives, the chimps, we see a very warlike, violent species. But just as close to us, the bonobo chimps, we see a very cooperative, "solve conflict with sex and love," species.

As for the past warlike cultures, where are they now?

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What about hitting a woman, no worse than hitting a man?

It’s no worse than hitting a man, and right now I despise women who pick a fight with their spouses and when he reacts, then they sue the guy for abuse… You don’t wanna get hit, then don’t do it yourself. My niece did that once, she was dennied a permission to go get wasted at a club when she was 14, so she started beating her stepdad, he slapped her to calm her down and later spent the night in jail for abuse and a child molestation charge as a dessert.

I think some things are going too far.

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I am a definite proponent of non violence, but wondered what it is. I know amongst most men, hitting a woman is the worst thing you can do, but thats not very equal since most of them have no problem clocking another guy.

Maybe Korea is more equal than I realized…

I remember back in my social psychology class when my professor said that in cases of domestic abuse, it was more likely that the man was the victim.

Naturally this sent the females in the class into a furor. He backed it up with statistics showing that domestic abuse counts emotional abuse which he said men were more sensitive too (I believe this) as well as physical abuse, which more men are prone to use.

I once told a girl this, she told me to fuck off. I replied that it was abuse!

(Okay I made that up, but I will try it as soon as I have an opportunity)

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quote:
I remember back in my social psychology class when my professor said that in cases of domestic abuse, it was more likely that the man was the victim.

Naturally this sent the females in the class into a furor. He backed it up with statistics showing that domestic abuse counts emotional abuse which he said men were more sensitive too (I believe this) as well as physical abuse, which more men are prone to use.

Or it could be that women don’t report emotional abuse in the same way that men do, because we’re taught to think we’re inferior, so when someone tells us, we don’t find it strange.

You hear a lot of men complain of their wives or girlfriends nagging them, but how many wives or girlfriends have you heard complain that their men put them down?

(edited because I can’t spell)

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quote:
quote:
I remember back in my social psychology class when my professor said that in cases of domestic abuse, it was more likely that the man was the victim.

Naturally this sent the females in the class into a furor. He backed it up with statistics showing that domestic abuse counts emotional abuse which he said men were more sensitive too (I believe this) as well as physical abuse, which more men are prone to use.

Or it could be that women don’t report emotional abuse in the same way that men do, because we’re taught to think we’re inferior, so when someone tells us, we don’t find it strange.

You hear a lot of men complain of their wives or girlfriends nagging them, but how many wives or girlfriends have you heard complain that their men put them down?

(edited because I can’t spell)

Way too many.

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I’m somewhat mused by the use of the word "liberalism" by positiveman.

The usual american use of the term inplies values where one wants a dominating government regulating public and economical affairs + ensuring the rights of minorities (as women or racial minorities).

However the real meaning of the word is rather different, as it stems from the latin word "liber", which means "free".

Liberalism is historically an intellectual belief that advocates the right of the individuel to make decisions, usually political or religious, according to the dictates of the conscience – which again contains a core value of an equal right to seek ones fortune + survival of the fittest.

In Europe the "liberal" parties are usually considered right wing parties – with values contrary to the left wing (where for instance Bob Geldorff belongs).

Funny how an american political party can completely change the meaning of a word …

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Kierans, I think the American use of the word is perfectly valid. "Liberal" is someone who demands change from the traditional or dominant way of doing things. Therefore, fiscally left-wing Americans, fiscally right-wing Europeans, as well as in Soviet days members of the communist party who wanted a more moderate communist system (they were silenced in the 1970s) all fall into the "liberal" category.

Positiveman:

quote:
One more point, something I was thinking about last night after arguing with some friends about German politics.. How many of you consider yourself at least fairly liberal, yet despise Hollywood movies? I know it’s a strange question, but it’s so typical for liberal-types to act so arrogantly righteous(see Bob Geldoff) in the name of equality, yet to use only one examply, is anything more democratic than a stupid Hollywood blockbuster? You know, the more people you want to appeal to, the dumber your message has to be. Hitler of course knew this. Hmm, got an idea for a new post..

I find myself in this category, and yet, contrary to what many Republicans in the US think, there is no irony here. I think most Hollywood movies are dumb entertainment, although there are some good ones. I just wish that equally good ones from the non-Hollywood kind would get the same kind of audience/media attention and funding.

Anyways, I opposed the invasion of Iraq (and nowadays I find it purely amazing that a very large segment of the population still defends the Bush adminstration’s invasion of Iraq, even worse citing the old outdated reasons that the Bush administration used to sell the war, which have all now been proven false). I didn’t even know that all these celebrties agreed with me, it caught me by surprise. It was a welcome surprise becuase I thought that they would have a massive influence on US society…apparently I was wrong here. Politicians have the real larger role in influencing people’s opinions, including how embarassing to me people in my age group (18-34).

Tinsie:

Do you have any idea how much that ladder weighs? Don’t get me wrong here, some of the men are also unfit for the job, especially on the police force: some are fat and eat doughnuts all day. But it’s funny when, nowadays, I see women construction workers. Their job is to hold the "slow" sign. All day. Again, I’m for equality, but come on….just admit it, Tinsie, that this woman took some poor guy’s job (there, I said it), some man who would have been more productive, who’s been looking for a job for months, and whose wife left him becasue he was unemployed. (How many husbands leave their wives for not being able to find a job?). There’s a lot more pressure on men, yet, at the same time, some women are trying to take opportunities away from men, making life more difficult..It’s the female hypocrisy…women want to have their cake and eat it too. You demand to be treated the same, but really, you do not want to be treated the same, you want to be treated above that. Now I‘m the type of guy who almost never swears in front of women, always waits for women to exit the elevator first or go through a door first, always offers to carry things (women never turn down this offer), and so on and so forth. I’ve never heard complaints, and even if I did, I probably wouldn’t change, because that would make me rude, or at least I would feel like an ass. Some women just need to accept that they are women. My buddies and I, we have this female friend, who gets pissed off if we don’t invite her sometimes on a guys night out drinking. Come on! (I don’t wanna go with her to a bridal shower. There’s PLENTY of things I’m glad I’m excluded from). Why is she having trouble accepting herself? I agree on the fundamental thigns that the feminist movement demanded, like equal pay (it’s perfectly logical), I’m pro-choice, and b>of course domestic violence (which no real man should ever do), etc, etc, but things have started to get out of hand….there are just some things where the feminist camp just needs to chill. And I also think that these women are more into image (wanting to prove something) than reality. Take my sister for example, who a couple years ago, I was helping her take things to her car, and she insisted on carrying an empty suitcase for 3 blocks to the parked car, while I was holding nothing. Yeah it’s an empty sauitcase, but to give you a visual picture here: imagine a skinny girl carrying a large suitcase while a muscular guy walking with her was carrying nothing. Now, if that suitcase was full of all her shit, she would have made me take it. It’s all about image. She wanted to prove (to passers-by) she can do something, even though she wasn’t really doing it.

Cil,

I know guys that have been screwed over, whose ex-wives took the cildren away, severals tates away..and do all sorts of mind games in order to get the courts to agree with them.


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luv_the_beach, I don’t know what to say in reply. You seem to be inhabiting a different planet to the one I’m on!!! Perhaps it’s a cultural thing… I don’t know… but I’m finding it kind of disturbing that young men these days think like you.

OK let’s try to formulate some answers (I don’t want you to think you’ve shut me up with your brilliant arguments).

First of all, the ladder. Yes, I know how much it weighs. I hope that everyone who works in the fire brigade can manage to put it up and hold it steady – whether they’re a man or a woman I don’t really care. At the end of the day, there are women fire fighters – are you saying that they haven’t gone through the same assessments and training as the men? Does the fire brigade only employ women for fun, rather than for their ability to do the job?

Secondly, women construction workers. Leaving aside the fact that my aunt is a construction worker (has been for the last 20 years) and I’ve never seen her holding a SLOW sign (or any other sign for that matter)… do you feel sorry for women who lost jobs due to men kindergarden teachers, nurses, cooks etc?? I don’t. May the best person get the job – what sex, colour, creed they are I don’t care. At the end of the day, if a construction company wants to employ a woman to hold up signs, perhaps it’s because she’s doing it better than the average man.

quote:You demand to be treated the same, but really, you do not want to be treated the same, you want to be treated above that. Now I’m the type of guy who almost never swears in front of women, always waits for women to exit the elevator first or go through a door first, always offers to carry things (women never turn down this offer), and so on and so forth. I’ve never heard complaints, and even if I did, I probably wouldn’t change, because that would make me rude, or at least I would feel like an ass. Some women just need to accept that they are women.

I thought this comment was a bit strange. I want to be treated the same. I don’t mind men (or women) swearing in front of me. I swear in front of the men in my life (my dad, my brother, my husband, my male friends) and most of them seem to be just as happy to swear in front of me. I don’t like it when men wait for me to exit the elevator as I consider it extremely sexist – esp. if the same men aren’t happy when I return the favour. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve waited for a man carrying his life possessions to exit when all I’m holding is my purse and he still won’t budge until I explain "no, you go first, you’re carrying way more than me". I don’t like men who offer to carry things either – if I’m carrying it, it means I can manage, if I wanted help, I’d ask. In your example with your sister I’d feel rude, not to mention manipulative, if I was walking with someone who was carrying my (empty!) case, when I carried nothing. It’s my case, I’ll carry it. I’m not dainty, I won’t break. Would you offer to carry an empty case for a skinny male friend? I have (and I’m sure your sister has too) carried a lot worse than an empty case, and although I can’t speak for your sister, I couldn’t care less what passers-by think.

As for your example of your friend wanting to come on a guys’ night out – I’m not sure why you don’t want her there, is it because she cramps your style?? I don’t have a habit of going to bridal showers – why anyone would want to I don’t know! I tend to go out with people, not sexes, so I’ve often been the only girl in an all-man group, and we’ve had male friends in an all-woman group when I’m out with my girlfriends. Personally if my male friends repeatedly refused to invite me out because it’s a "guys’ night", I’d probably ditch them.

For the record, I don’t think I have trouble "accepting myself", it’s just that who I am, and who people like you think I am is two different things. Perhaps the same applies to your friend, or your sister?

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quote:

quote:You demand to be treated the same, but really, you do not want to be treated the same, you want to be treated above that. Now I’m the type of guy who almost never swears in front of women, always waits for women to exit the elevator first or go through a door first, always offers to carry things (women never turn down this offer), and so on and so forth. I’ve never heard complaints, and even if I did, I probably wouldn’t change, because that would make me rude, or at least I would feel like an ass. Some women just need to accept that they are women.

I thought this comment was a bit strange. I want to be treated the same. I don’t mind men (or women) swearing in front of me. I swear in front of the men in my life (my dad, my brother, my husband, my male friends) and most of them seem to be just as happy to swear in front of me. I don’t like it when men wait for me to exit the elevator as I consider it extremely sexist – esp. if the same men aren’t happy when I return the favour. I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve waited for a man carrying his life possessions to exit when all I’m holding is my purse and he still won’t budge until I explain "no, you go first, you’re carrying way more than me". I don’t like men who offer to carry things either – if I’m carrying it, it means I can manage, if I wanted help, I’d ask. In your example with your sister I’d feel rude, not to mention manipulative, if I was walking with someone who was carrying my (empty!) case, when I carried nothing. It’s my case, I’ll carry it. I’m not dainty, I won’t break. Would you offer to carry an empty case for a skinny male friend? I have (and I’m sure your sister has too) carried a lot worse than an empty case, and although I can’t speak for your sister, I couldn’t care less what passers-by think.

That’s awesome that you are that way, but you are an exception to the rule. Today I still see feminist women accepting the man to pay for their movie ticket, I see feminist women manipulating their idiot boyfriends so they pay for their clothes, shoes, etc. Feminism is not about equal rights anymore, it’s about control over men.

quote:
luv_the_beach, I don’t know what to say in reply. You seem to be inhabiting a different planet to the one I’m on!!! Perhaps it’s a cultural thing… I don’t know… but I’m finding it kind of disturbing that young men these days think like you.

I come from Luv’s planet. The problem in my country is there’s still the macho thing going on, so a lot of guys that are physically or verbally abused never say anything because 1) there is no law that protects them, 2) it’s embarrasing to admit your wife bashes you. Statistics reveal a minority of men being abused but it’s just because guys won’t admit it. But when speaking to the women, hearing them brag about the control they have, some don’t know they are abusive, because the term abuse only works for sex crimes (which don’t even proceed when the abuse comes from a spouse) and violence that can be proven (broken bones, blood, etc.)

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quote:
That’s awesome that you are that way, but you are an exception to the rule. Today I still see feminist women accepting the man to pay for their movie ticket, I see feminist women manipulating their idiot boyfriends so they pay for their clothes, shoes, etc. Feminism is not about equal rights anymore, it’s about control over men.

Perhaps it’s a cultural thing. I can’t speak for your culture (so perhaps I shouldn’t be contributing to this thread in the first place… hmmmm) but in my experience I’m not that exceptional. I don’t consider myself a feminist as such, but I do believe in equal ops and equal rights. If I’m on a date, I may accept the man paying for my movie ticket (esp. if it’s him who’s asked me out) but if I go out with a male friend I take it for granted that either we’ll each pay for our own tickets, or we’ll take it in turns to pay. That’s what I do with my girlfriends, too.

Also may I add that my boyfriends have never paid for my clothes, shoes etc. unless they were buying me a birthday or Xmas present, and even then it’s usually been a jumper or something – nothing too extravagant – and I’ve gladly returned the favour.

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A quick note on the violence comments:

The way the stats break down, women hit men far more than men hit women. However, men do far more damage with their punches than women do. So in fact, if domestic abuse is underreported, it is the men who are not reporting it. But what’s more important, number of times hit or amount of damage? (i’d say the latter)

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quote:
do you feel sorry for women who lost jobs due to men kindergarden teachers,

What’s ironic about this is the fact that since more men have gotten into early childhood education, the pay has gone up.

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You have me to thank Cil!

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Kierans, I think the American use of the word is perfectly valid. "Liberal" is someone who demands change from the traditional or dominant way of doing things. Therefore, fiscally left-wing Americans, fiscally right-wing Europeans, as well as in Soviet days members of the communist party who wanted a more moderate communist system (they were silenced in the 1970s) all fall into the "liberal" category.

Luv, I definitely disagree – as a philosophy liberalism does not a contain an automatic demand for changes of the existing order (as long as the society is fully in liberal balance).

In many ways the american use is ironic, since liberalism is rather contrary to socialism.

In Liberalism the individual is to be given the widest possible freedom – with as few behavioral restrictions as possible upon the individual (such as non-violence, non-theft and so on due to the need for the society as a whole to function). The individual person is the center of this ideology – and the state is to be kept on an absolute minimum.

In socialism the individual is wiewed upon as a part of a greater and better whole – the state/society. The welfare of the society as a whole is the main purpose – and individual freedom (such as the right to own things, the right to exploit ones abilities to ones own best) is only given in a limited way due to the need for the society to function.

So on the central values liberalism and socialism are opposite to each other.

However – as I wrote above I’m just mused of this rigthout misuse of the word "liberal" … the most important thing is that the meaning by (mis-)using the word is understood ..

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There’s things women can’t do, like carry heavy things above our head cause of the shoulder thing…

What is this shoulder thing?

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quote: But what’s more important, number of times hit or amount of damage? (i’d say the latter)

1) Violence is violence, period.

2) I’d say being beaten many times is worse, letting it happen more than once speaks for itself.

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What do you say to a woman with two black eyes???…………..

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Don’t tell really old jokes?

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What the hell is this whole thread even about?

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quote:First of all, the ladder. Yes, I know how much it weighs. I hope that everyone who works in the fire brigade can manage to put it up and hold it steady – whether they’re a man or a woman I don’t really care. At the end of the day, there are women fire fighters – are you saying that they haven’t gone through the same assessments and training as the men? Does the fire brigade only employ women for fun, rather than for their ability to do the job?

Tinsie, it’s not that there aren’t any women whatsoever who can’t do the job…as I said there are some exceptions. What I’m arguing is that the extrmist feminist camp wants to believe that the general female population has the same physical capabilites as the general male population, when this is clearly not the case.

quote:do you feel sorry for women who lost jobs due to men kindergarden teachers, nurses, cooks etc?? I don’t. May the best person get the job – what sex, colour, creed they are I don’t care. At the end of the day, if a construction company wants to employ a woman to hold up signs, perhaps it’s because she’s doing it better than the average man.

Tinsie, again I think you missed my point. Let me ask again: how many women do you know were dumped by their husbands after these women lost their jobs? Ever heard of a man leaving his wife because she lost her job? No. He sticks it out with her. Women, on the other hand while not all of them do this they generally do have a tendency to dump their husbands if he’s been laid off (even if it’s a minority of women who do this, you never hear about men doing this), they then find a new husband, take the kids away from their father (the most BRUTAL thing she can do -and she knows it), and take his house and alimony payments, and the man is broke for the rest of his life. Men really have to pull their weight, otherwise they’re fucked. Women can just find another man. I’m not saying women have it easier in life, but they do have have certain options that men don’t have, and they do not hesitate to exercise these options. I’m very proud of these men kindergaren teachers, nurses, etc, they have to support themselves, don’t they? It’s women who are more likely to make negative comments against men who have traditionally "female" jobs, and also make negative comments to men or for a variety of other reasons. Women are a major part of the problem; don’t pretend that it’s a "man’s" world. MEN, on the other hand, have to do whatever they can to pull their weight.

quote:I don’t like it when men wait for me to exit the elevator as I consider it extremely sexist

Oh you’ve got to be kidding. At work, I was in the fucking elevator the other day with the CEO (a woman), ME a young entry-level guy with this powerful person. I waited for her to exit first. She smiled very sweetly (she’s a small sweet-looking woman) said thanks and wished me a happy weekend. The fucking CEO of the company doesn’t consider this sexist. Nor do I. I consider it ETIQUETTE. It’s the way I was raised….and I do not come from a very conservative family. I come from a somewhat-religious-but-fairly-secular family, growing up my hosuehold was very communal (everything belonged to everyone…nothing was "dad’s" or "mom’s" or "sister’s" everything belonged to everyone) and my extended family is very artsy and philosophical; we are fiscally slightly left of center, (socially we all vary); I can discuss anything with my parents, aunts, and uncles from Karl Marx to Freud to Plato…yet I was still raised with this etiquette, which I do not consider sexist. And I think it’s absolutely absurd that you do.

quote:I’ve lost count of the number of times I’ve waited for a man carrying his life possessions to exit when all I’m holding is my purse and he still won’t budge until I explain "no, you go first, you’re carrying way more than me".

He’s a man. He can cope.

quote:As for your example of your friend wanting to come on a guys’ night out – I’m not sure why you don’t want her there, is it because she cramps your style?? I don’t have a habit of going to bridal showers – why anyone would want to I don’t know! I tend to go out with people, not sexes, so I’ve often been the only girl in an all-man group, and we’ve had male friends in an all-woman group when I’m out with my girlfriends. Personally if my male friends repeatedly refused to invite me out because it’s a "guys’ night", I’d probably ditch them.

Tinsie, I feel so sorry for that guy who hung out with just ladies. He might not admit it, but when a man is outnumbered by women they all viciously turn on him, and then the female-dominated, female-oriented conversation is extremely boring for him. I’ve been in the situation many times, and hated it. I feel for him. Perhaps you don’t nor will you ever understand. Women are always saying how liberating it is when they have a girl’s night out…just the girlfriends. It’s the same thing for guys, Tinsie. Sometimes, guys just want to be guys…just a night out with the lads. That’s it. Why is this wrong? Why can’t this chick have a girl’s night out? It’s not as if she has no female friends…she’s got plenty of them. She is a little on the tomboy side, but come on.


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luv_the_beach, you seem to have a very warped view of the world in general and women in particular. I don’t know if it’s because of your cultural background or what, but your experiences and views seem totally alien to me. We could be from different planets for all I can tell, and I can’t decide if you really believe what you say or if you’re having me on!!

Either way, there’s little point in continuing this discussion. All I’ll say is that I hope one day you’ll find peace with the "second sex".

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No Tinsie, it’s not a difference in cultural background. And I am interested to hear what you have to say. Your rejection of my most recent post is something I find intriguing and I’d like to know your reasoning. Or are you backing down?

I do not consider women the second sex…I consider men and women equal. And I find your views extremely perplexing. For all it’s worth, you need to understand that despite the fact they we are and should be equal politically and economically, there are major physical differences, and these differences exist for reproductive purposes. Women have made great strides in many societies, and this is certainly a very welcome phenomenon, given the incredibly disadvantaged cirsumstances women were given in the past. Yes, women were given a lot of shit in the past, and they had every right to stand up and change that. But this doesn’t mean we should ignore physical differences and above most sexual attraction, which not only serve reproductive purposes, but enhance life. I do not want to treat women like men. Yes: at work, at the polls, at school, in political debates, intellectual discussions, in the courtroom, and so on, we are all the same. But in the pub, we’re not the same. I’m looking to get laid, and only a woman I’m attracted to can help me out with that…and that certainly won’t happen if I dress like a woman, she dresses like a man, and we ignore the gender differences between us. A woman does not look attractive in men’s clothing, a man certainly does not look attractive in woamn’s clothing, and the human race can not survive if we reduce gender differences to what’s between our legs. Women have breasts. Men have broad shoulders. That’s the way it is, and that’s how you pick up your mate. It’s why I slave in the gym 6 times a week and am very careful with what I eat, and I love to shove that in the face of any woman who complains that society expects her to be thin, well dressed, with properly applied makeup. Yes, I expect women to look like dolls, because I myself take good care of myself and look like I steped off the cover of Men’ Health. So if you think I’m some chauvinist fat bastard with a beer gut, guess again. And don’t think that you represent all women. Most women appreciate when a man waits for them to step off the elvator. I have not yet heard one complaint, and in fact, those women tell their female friends what a sweet guy I am.

It’s what happens after you find your mate that is entirely different. Yes, in a marriage, men and women are 50/50. The decision making is 50/50. The family is headed by both. I don’t think publicly acknowlednging this exposes hidden chauvisitic attitudes on my part; if that’s what you’re assuming, you’re wrong.

I find it extremely absurd that you throw me in the same camp as male chauvinists, and that you’re "worried" that many young men think like me. What annoys me are women who manipulate and backstab, blood-suckers who viciously rip out the hearts of men, and then rob him of all ihs money. Do these women make up the majority of the female population? No. but it is very prevalent, and women don’t think anything ill of it. I’m also annoyed by women who have taken "equality" to mean "superiority" and they like to think that women are superior to men. This joke is getting real old. No, if women ran the world, it would not be a better place. I think women would do a job just as god as men, but certainly not better. I dislike Madeleine Albright and Condoleeza Rice just as much as I dislike Donald Rumsfeld and Henry Kissinger. I lean more towards Gerhard Schroeder than Angela Merkel, not because she’s a woman, but because of what she stands for politically. And since you and I both know Greece very well I think Dora Bakogianni is a going a great job as mayor of Athens, and I foresee her as a great prime minister in about a decade’s time. But on a guys night out drinking I wouldn’t consider her one of the guys. Sorry.

Most women are not like you, Tinsie. It’s that minority, that handful that are like you that need to understand that men need their space sometimes. Men need to be MEN. If it doesn’t cause you any harm, why are you bothered by it? Women originally demanded the right to vote and participate in government because it’s only logical that women are involved in political prcesses that affect their lives. It makes perfect sense. But if a group of lads goes out and leaves their girlfriends/wives/female friends behind, where’s the harm in that? If a man has a family, that’s entirely different, he needs to be reponsible and change his ways (but that too doesn’t mean that he shouldn’t leave his wife behind every now and then and have a beer with his friends, and then come home early. Yes, I do expect him to watch he kids every now and then if his wife wants to go see a movie with her girldfriends). But I do not have a family…I’m single and have no one to answer to. Why do I threaten you? Why are you trying so hard to emasculate men? Why are you trying to be a part of everything? Where does it stop?


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luv_the_beach, sorry to say this (again) but I really don’t see the point in discussing this. Your thinking is so alien to me I’m finding this conversation quite surreal.

I’m sure you must be a very nice guy, but in all honesty, I find your views bizarre bordering on the ridiculous. If culture can’t explain at least part of our difference of opinion, I can’t think what else will!!

I find the following views particularly disturbing:

quote: For all it’s worth, you need to understand that despite the fact they we are and should be equal politically and economically, there are major physical differences, and these differences exist for reproductive purposes.

quote:But in the pub, we’re not the same. I’m looking to get laid, and only a woman I’m attracted to can help me out with that…and that certainly won’t happen if I dress like a woman, she dresses like a man, and we ignore the gender differences between us.

quote:Yes, I expect women to look like dolls, because I myself take good care of myself and look like I steped off the cover of Men’ Health.

quote:What annoys me are women who manipulate and backstab, blood-suckers who viciously rip out the hearts of men, and then rob him of all ihs money. Do these women make up the majority of the female population? No. but it is very prevalent, and women don’t think anything ill of it.

Quite honestly, I’m lost for words.

quote:Why do I threaten you? Why are you trying so hard to emasculate men? Why are you trying to be a part of everything? Where does it stop?

You don’t threaten me – in the slightest. Your views make me cringe, but I don’t feel threatened, because the men I’m close to don’t think like you. I’m not trying to emasculate men – but I don’t consiser manliness to be a virtue (same as I don’t think the "Barbie doll" approach to femininity is the way forward). You seem to find me threatening – and quite rightly, because if all women thought like me, men like you would never get laid, and you’d soon be extinct. But hey, it seems there are all sorts of people in the world, and so long as you stick to the Barbie dolls and don’t cross into my universe, we’ll all be happy for ever after.

P.S. When I meantioned the "second sex" I wasn’t implying that you consider women the second sex. It was simply a tongue-in-cheek reference to Simone de Beauvoir’s classic essay…

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Hi positive woman!

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I myself take good care of myself and look like I steped off the cover of Men’ Health

Okay Luv, so we’ve established that you are gay (being a poster boy for Mens Health is a new way to come out of the closet- I think Hope’s ex was the first to out himself in such a stylee)

Men are supposed to have a few rough edges, being too preeny is gay, leads to gender indifference as per the general publics (and mainly womens) image of what an ideal man should look like, ask Modulis, I’m sure in the past he held unique bragging rights to looking like a nancy aerobics instructor batty boy!

I’d bet every women here would divorce a vain asshole like Beckham, who spent more time in front of the mirror than them. What the press punts as the ideal partner isn’t what your real physical and psychological needs are.

For the 10 mins I spend on self grooming and body sculpting a week I’m packing more punches than the lot of you put together and still manly, with enough hormones to kick start a morgue full of dead people.

That reminds me, I must get my nipples waxed before I go on holiday,

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LOL @jboy….aren’t you the guy that can barely bench 10 pounds, and openly admits it? Guys that call themselves "rough" are always the fat and weak ones. Or skinny and weak, take your pick.

You sit on your fat ass and eat cheetos while yelling insults at me.



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Just jumping back in…

Tinsie, why is this view of luv’s &quotarticularly disturbing" ?

quote: For all it’s worth, you need to understand that despite the fact they we are and should be equal politically and economically, there are major physical differences, and these differences exist for reproductive purposes.

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Fortunately genetics gave me a physique that isn’t as high maintenance as yours Luv, I can bench, I do sometimes, but it’s not a ‘Jihad’ for me, or an obsession like it is for you, I prefer my exercise in social sports, football, golf, squash etc.

Standing around in gyms with MTV (Muppet Television) on isn’t my idea of fun or bragging about looking like a preppy faggot which titilates you, a superifical odyssey

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quote:
Just jumping back in…

Tinsie, why is this view of luv’s &quotarticularly disturbing" ?

quote: For all it’s worth, you need to understand that despite the fact they we are and should be equal politically and economically, there are major physical differences, and these differences exist for reproductive purposes.

Because the differences luv is referring to (broad shoulders-breasts, toned body-makeup etc.) seem to have an awful lot to do with sexual attraction and very little with reproduction per se.

Also because I object to the idea that those who don’t conform to these images (fat men with narrow shoulders, women with small breasts who don’t wear make up etc.) should feel inadequate.

Oh and because, in my view, physical appearance (and the reproduction of our species) don’t have anything to do with equality. You don’t respect a woman because she looks pretty or a man because he has a sixpack – you respect them because they’re human beings, and all human beings are equal.

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quote:
quote:
Just jumping back in…

Tinsie, why is this view of luv’s &quotarticularly disturbing" ?

quote: For all it’s worth, you need to understand that despite the fact they we are and should be equal politically and economically, there are major physical differences, and these differences exist for reproductive purposes.

quote:
Because the differences luv is referring to (broad shoulders-breasts, toned body-makeup etc.) seem to have an awful lot to do with sexual attraction and very little with reproduction per se.

At some level, these things have to be about reproduction. Attracting mates is certainly about reproduction (though not likely foremost in people’s heads).

quote:
Also because I object to the idea that those who don’t conform to these images (fat men with narrow shoulders, women with small breasts who don’t wear make up etc.) should feel inadequate.

Agreed.

quote:
Oh and because, in my view, physical appearance (and the reproduction of our species) don’t have anything to do with equality. You don’t respect a woman because she looks pretty or a man because he has a sixpack – you respect them because they’re human beings, and all human beings are equal.

But that’s my overall point – all human beings are not equal. Saying they are doesn’t make it so. It’s a worthwhile ideal, but we shouldn’t treat it as fact when it obviously isn’t. In the way you’re using it, do we respect criminals who maim, rape and kill? Are these people equal to the rest of us? Does a girl looking for a partner to date need to equally respect the guy who doesn’t shower as much as the clean guy?

Equality as an ideal is great, but it’s limited. In my view, it’s limited to opportunity. It does not mean we are all physically, morally, uniquely equal. We don’t start at the same place. And thus, we are not all equally deserving. It’s blindness (to the facts and to people’s life histories) to assume that we are.

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Word ‘frio.

I was reading your post and I was thinking about the exact word – opportunity.

Good post.

As to Tinsie, I think sexual attraction has a lot to do with reproduction. If you don’t have it, you don’t get so many chances to attempt it (so I’ve heard…) and that isn’t limited to humans, it is far more prevalent in the animal world.

Ugly (or to be PC, less attractive people, I dont want to argue on a point like this)people can do quite well (we move to Japan where our big noses and tallness are desirable, um, I mean, some, not we!) by using other means, such as personality, sensitivity or the big one, wealth.

Squirrels don’t pick others based on non attractive features, the senitive squirrel is probably lonely. The squirrel with a lot of nuts is the one carrying on the species..

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quote:
At some level, these things have to be about reproduction. Attracting mates is certainly about reproduction (though not likely foremost in people’s heads).

Are you saying that men with narrow shoulders or a less toned body and women with small breasts who don’t wear makeup find it hard to reproduce? Somehow I don’t think so. Then again, perhaps it’s different in the States…

quote:But that’s my overall point – all human beings are not equal. Saying they are doesn’t make it so. It’s a worthwhile ideal, but we shouldn’t treat it as fact when it obviously isn’t. In the way you’re using it, do we respect criminals who maim, rape and kill? Are these people equal to the rest of us? Does a girl looking for a partner to date need to equally respect the guy who doesn’t shower as much as the clean guy?

You are misinterpreting my words. We’re talking about men and women being equal – not about killers and rapists and people who don’t wash.

Perhaps that’s our basic disagreement: when I see a man, I see someone who’s the same as me only different for "reproductive purposes". When (some of) you see a woman, you see someone who’s different and inferior, someone who needs to be cherished and looked after and cared for, who can’t ever be any good as a fireman or a builder, and must look Barbie doll pretty to be attractive to the opposite sex.

Then you’re surprised when the little missy dumps you as soon as you stop being able to provide for her and/or lose your youthful looks. I rest my case.