travel advice & savings
 
SAVE on RAIL PASSES LOWEST PRICES / FREE SHIPPING on orders over $449!
Now use the Trip Planner to:
  • Find and Buy Rail Passes
  • Find and Book Hostels
Already know which Rail Pass you need?
Click here and buy now!
Special Eurotrip Member Savings!
87 replies
Sunny.girl
Sunny.girl's profile picture
Member
MemberMember
Eurotrip Points: 55
Member: 322
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

I bet you will see reprisals against muslims in the UK after this, there will be a massive backlash against the UK muslim community. This is the UK, race riots have happened many times in the past for no real reason, now there really is a reason and it will be messy.

HomeSkillet
HomeSkillet's profile picture
Nomad
NomadNomadNomadNomad
Eurotrip Points: 446
Member: 636
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

I think Vera is right that the radical Muslim extremists interpret our occupation of Saudi Arabia in the early 90’s and of Iraq and Afghanistan today as our attempt to destroy the Muslim culture. That’s about the best explanation that I’ve ever heard for what is going on.

So here is a serious question for everyone: How do we get these mis-believing terrorists to see that they are wrong in their interpretation? Killing insurgents in Iraq and arresting members of Al-Qaeda isn’t exactly sending them that message, know what I mean?

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

quote:
I think Vera is right that the radical Muslim extremists interpret our occupation of Saudi Arabia in the early 90’s and of Iraq and Afghanistan today as our attempt to destroy the Muslim culture. That’s about the best explanation that I’ve ever heard for what is going on.

So here is a serious question for everyone: How do we get these mis-believing terrorists to see that they are wrong in their interpretation? Killing insurgents in Iraq and arresting members of Al-Qaeda isn’t exactly sending them that message, know what I mean?

You can’t reason with the unreasonable mind. These Islamo-fascists have a mindset of a thousand years ago. They truly believe that they are carried out the work of Allah. They want to return the middle east to a &quoturer" state of Islam with the strictist interpretation of the Koran. Their enemies are moderate Moslem states like Jordan and Egypt that have ties with the west. Their enemy is also anyone that stands in the way of returning the middle east to strict fundamentalist Islam, and toppling the Saudi royal family. The US is their main obstacle to doing this. We can’t let them fall because we depend on their oil. So the Islamists will continue their attacks until those obsticles to an Islamist superstate are gone. Occasionally they’ll bring up some other grievance, such as the US selling arms to Israel or kids dieing in Iraq under sanctions, but those aren’t the main rationale. There is no reasoning with them. This will go on, and many more will die. If they can get ahold of suitcase nukes and destroy the US and England in a blink, they will do so and be 100% convinced that their god wants them to do such. Wish I could be optimistic, but I’m not. We must continue to support moderate moslems, and do what we can to fight the propanda war against the Bin Ladinites who infect impoverished youth from Africa to the Phillipines like a virus. We also have to shore up the home front by defending the damned border, and YES, doing MORE profiling in airports, MORE monitoring of mosques and start arresting firebrand imams that preach violence against the west under sedition charges. Even still, there won’t be any end to the deaths on both sides for the foreseeble future. I think the worse is still to come. They’ll probably continue hitting soft targets in Europe trying to weaken the alliance, and leave America alone for now. I think they’re saving the big fireworks for the US or Israel or both, which’ll probably be portable nuclear devices from the Russian black market.

Sunny.girl
Sunny.girl's profile picture
Member
MemberMember
Eurotrip Points: 55
Member: 322
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

Simple get out of Iraq, leave the middle east to the middle easterns. Stop supporting the jews, make the US leave Saudi Arabia. Stop trying to impose western values on people who have their own, just because they are different from us doesn’t make them wrong, just different. We also need to stop trying to force democracey onto them, they don’t want, it will never work, just like Africa it’s different, we should stop trying to change it.

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

quote:
Simple get out of Iraq, leave the middle east to the middle easterns. Stop supporting the jews, make the US leave Saudi Arabia. Stop trying to impose western values on people who have their own, just because they are different from us doesn’t make them wrong, just different. We also need to stop trying to force democracey onto them, they don’t want, it will never work, just like Africa it’s different, we should stop trying to change it.

May sound quick, easy and idealistic, but in the real world, how would this play out? Ok, so we leave Iraq and Saudi Arabia, they get overthrown by Al Queda types, they cut the oil supply, the price of energy goes into the stratosphere, western economies go into a depression, people can no longer afford to get to work because fuel is too expensive, airlines fold under the pressure of high fuel costs, the cost of food skyrockets because the transportation and mechanized farming costs skyrocket. Now you’ve got another dire situation on your hands by walking away from the middle east. If you feel that’s the best thing to do, you’re entitled to your opinion, but a complete withdrawl from the middle east would have serious consequences as well. There is no easy solution to this problem.

I wish all that damn oil were in Canada or Austrailia instead.

HomeSkillet
HomeSkillet's profile picture
Nomad
NomadNomadNomadNomad
Eurotrip Points: 446
Member: 636
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

quote:
Simple get out of Iraq, leave the middle east to the middle easterns. Stop supporting the jews, make the US leave Saudi Arabia. Stop trying to impose western values on people who have their own, just because they are different from us doesn’t make them wrong, just different. We also need to stop trying to force democracey onto them, they don’t want, it will never work, just like Africa it’s different, we should stop trying to change it.

That’s not really what I meant, Sunny Girl. How do we convince them that our presence there is not meant to be a harmful one? Moreover, how would our allies—Israel, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt—feel about our leaving them to fend for themselves?

And besides, I don’t think we are trying to impose western values on them; we just want them to learn that we can all live together if not in harmony, then at least in mutual tolerance, with our own religions (a few Gitmo-stationed Marines and Abu Gharib grunts notwithstanding).

positiveman
positiveman's profile picture
Traveler
TravelerTravelerTraveler
Eurotrip Points: 305
Member: 377
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 4 years 50 weeks ago.

Well, first of all, your logic is not so absolute as you seem to think. Because there is a fundamental difference between being critical of a – IMO – cultural background that is not doing enough to stop this kind of thing(an "enabling" culture, perhaps, to use some nice sociological frippery that might appeal to people like yourself..), and the foolish leap to blame the victims.

To use the rape example again. There is a fundamental difference between being critical of, for example, the rapists’ family who maybe didn’t do enough to control and prevent him from doing the deed, and pointing at the rapist’s abusive childhood as some sort of excuse. Because that’s what it is – an excuse. When you talk that way – I mean pointing fingers at Blair or the Iraq war or whatever – it comes pretty damn close to legitimization. Don’t you see that? Once the act – the CRIME, or TOTALLY UNJUSTIABLE EVIL MURDER, if your like, has been committed, then there must be a prioritization with respect to how you deal with it. Eventually, I admit, you get around to evaluating past events and causes, etc.. But it’s hopelessly naive IMO to think that by pulling out of Iraq for ex. that they’ll stop doing this. We weren’t in Iraq on 9/11 for example…, or, to use a more local example, John B. Doe who had to jump from the top of the WTC may very well have been opposed to Israel’s policies in the Middle East…. But people like you make this preposterous leap from the act to previous events, RIGHT OR WRONG, and the effect of doing so is to convey a sense fo legitimization. And meanwhile they continue to and will continue to attack us – that means you, me, and anybody in the West.

Now, I know you’re fond of calculating – oh so logically – that only .000000000003% of the Muslim world is actually responsible for terrorism, but as terrorism is carried out IN THE NAME OF ISLAM, all of these other supposedly good Muslims I would think have a responsibility – if only in their own interests – to stand the fuck up and try to do something to prevent or stop it. (At least be more vocal about it. When they do say something, as the Arab League did today, why does it seem so close to an empty, very political gesture? Please explain that to me, oh clever enlightened one. I guess it’s just because I’m unenlightened..) As I don’t see that(OK OK maybe it’s the media’s fault, partially..) happening, what should one assume? Well, sympathy, however partial, (logically..) comes to mind…

jboy
jboy's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1531
Member: 113
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 6 years 36 weeks ago.

I’m with Sunni girl on this, leave the middle east to it’s own devices. The reason this can’t be don’t is due (excuse the pun) the power of the Jewish lobbies in wetsern countries.

If U.S support was ceased, Israel would be a smouldering crater right now.

I really believe Al Qaeda have embraced the concept of mutually assured destruction… the USA has interfered in Middle Eastern politics for too long and equipped Israel with the H Bomb and other military hardware.

It’s real easy to see why these people hate us,

positiveman
positiveman's profile picture
Traveler
TravelerTravelerTraveler
Eurotrip Points: 305
Member: 377
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 4 years 50 weeks ago.

Side-note: I do think the Iraq war was a mistake. But not because I have some foolish notion of world peace, etc.., but because I think it was unintelligent, and ultimately not in America’s interests. I would also have preferred to see Kerry become president. And that, despite your actually rather sophomoric reasoning, in no way contradicts anything I’ve said. 9/11 was planned when Clinton was President…

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

quote:
I’m with Sunni girl on this, leave the middle east to it’s own devices. The reason this can’t be don’t is due (excuse the pun) the power of the Jewish lobbies in wetsern countries.

I don’t know about Europe, but most Americans support Israel because it is the one modern liberal democracy surrounded by fanatical, repressive regimes. Why you have so much disdain for Israel and apparently none for Israel’s neighbors(or the cut throats in the Sunni triangle for that matter) is a mystery to me.

quote:
If U.S support was ceased, Israel would be a smouldering crater right now.

I doubt that. They seemed to have held their own pretty well in past wars with their Arab neighbors. They are an advanced first world nation surrounded by the 3rd world.

quote:
I really believe Al Qaeda have embraced the concept of mutually assured destruction… the USA has interfered in Middle Eastern politics for too long and equipped Israel with the H Bomb and other military hardware.

It’s real easy to see why these people hate us,

They seem to hate everybody, from Christian Nigerians to Bali clubgoers, but then I guess it’s their own fault that they’re hated. The only innocent people in this world are Moslems. They are just victims that never do anything wrong to anyone.

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

As promised, here is the link to that broadcast on jihad in Britain. Pretty interesting stuff:

http://www.kcrw.org/…

I don’t know when we’re going to get serious about those that live amongst us and preach sedition against the west.

Jake the Peg
Jake the Peg's profile picture
Member
MemberMember
Eurotrip Points: 121
Member: 65
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 6 years 14 weeks ago.

quote:
If U.S support was ceased, Israel would be a smouldering crater right now.

Would that be a bad thing if it brought peace to the middle east and by extension the rest of the world. It’s not as if the state of israel is worth all the grief it’s existance has caused.

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

quote:
quote:
If U.S support was ceased, Israel would be a smouldering crater right now.

Would that be a bad thing if it brought peace to the middle east and by extension the rest of the world. It’s not as if the state of israel is worth all the grief it’s existance has caused.

If if we could turn Saudi Arabia into a smoldering radioactive crater in order to bring peace to the world, would you also agree with that?

jboy
jboy's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1531
Member: 113
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 6 years 36 weeks ago.

quote:
If if we could turn Saudi Arabia into a smoldering radioactive crater in order to bring peace to the world, would you also agree with that?

the House of Saud is keeping the west afloat with oil sales and buying military hardware, smart analysis Mod as usual, NOT.

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

quote:
quote:
If if we could turn Saudi Arabia into a smoldering radioactive crater in order to bring peace to the world, would you also agree with that?

the House of Saud is keeping the west afloat with oil sales and buying military hardware, smart analysis Mod as usual, NOT.

Ever heard of the neutron bomb?

clunker
clunker's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 739
Member: 497
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 3 years 22 weeks ago.

quote: I wish all that damn oil were in Canada or Austrailia instead.

I just wish it weren’t needed at all.

jboy
jboy's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1531
Member: 113
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 6 years 36 weeks ago.

quote:
Ever heard of the neutron bomb?

Yes, and the Neutron bomb is a very low yield weapon and that’s not it’s intented use… it’s a anti-armour tactical weapon: your level of ignorance increase every day Mod…. government propaganda of bogeyman bombs, and Vodoo biological terrorist attacks… don’t believe the bullshit and arm yourself with the facts.

quote:
These same authorities say that the common perception of the neutron bomb as a "landlord bomb" that would kill people but leave buildings undamaged is greatly overstated. At the conventional effective combat range (690 m) the blast from a 1 kt neutron bomb will destroy or damage to the point of unusability almost any civilian building. Thus the use of neutron bombs to stop an enemy attack, which requires exploding large numbers of them to blanket the enemy forces, would also destroy all buildings in the area.

Veracocha
Veracocha's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1045
Member: 315
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

quote:
Well, first of all, your logic is not so absolute as you seem to think. Because there is a fundamental difference between being critical of a – IMO – cultural background that is not doing enough to stop this kind of thing(an "enabling" culture, perhaps, to use some nice sociological frippery that might appeal to people like yourself..), and the foolish leap to blame the victims.

I never blamed the victims. I’d much rather you address your own strangely self-criticial comments that you assert in a way that ignores the way you contradict yourself. Don’t get me wrong, I know what you’re trying to say by blaming those in a rapist’s background for the rape but, again, I think you’re blaming those who didn’t have anything to do with it (and that’s what you’re railing against). Of course, we could also take your logic here and extend it pretty damn far. How far should we go? Shall we take a look at a variety of cultures, see where they fuck up along the way, and then blame them for their social deviants, murderers, rapists, et al.?

quote:
To use the rape example again. There is a fundamental difference between being critical of, for example, the rapists’ family who maybe didn’t do enough to control and prevent him from doing the deed, and pointing at the rapist’s abusive childhood as some sort of excuse.

So extend this to your critique of Islam and forget the rape analogy. What exactly are you trying to say here about those committing terrorism?

I can see where you’re going but short of a police-state like Singapore I’m not sure where you’re going to find a culture that is so responsible that it has no deviants, murderers, rapists, etc.

So what are we to do then? Continue to find ways to point fingers at human nature?

quote:
Because that’s what it is – an excuse. When you talk that way – I mean pointing fingers at Blair or the Iraq war or whatever – it comes pretty damn close to legitimization.

Sure, I would argue that it depends on what the pointer is trying to say though. That is, it is possible to attempt to understand in a more objective way what it is that these terrorists are about. When you get down to that, Blair and Bush become pretty big pieces of the puzzle.

quote:
Don’t you see that? Once the act – the CRIME, or TOTALLY UNJUSTIABLE EVIL MURDER, if your like, has been committed, then there must be a prioritization with respect to how you deal with it.

What is your prioritization then?

quote:
Eventually, I admit, you get around to evaluating past events and causes, etc.. But it’s hopelessly naive IMO to think that by pulling out of Iraq for ex. that they’ll stop doing this.

Why? If you think about it, those arguing for a pull-out have a pretty sound logic to what they’re saying. I don’t wholly agree with that point of view but I could think of a few things off the top of my head. Pulling out now would:

A) Remove the ‘just cause’ that the terrorists use to justify their actions and to recruit people to their side (passively or actively). Namely, the US dominated coalition in Iraq and Afghanistan. If we left, what could possibly serve as a better justification to mount these attacks, support these groups in one way or another, or expand the war against the infidel…so to speak?

B) Remove the most popular targets for jihadists flocking to Iraq. Namely, the US dominated coalition in Iraq (and Afghanistan). I’d argue they get more of a thrill from killing Americans though.

C) Remove the training tools for what has become a hotbed of terrorist training. Namely, the US dominated coalition in Iraq and Afghanistan.

D) Remove the indirect security (or direct challenge to sovereignty and nationalistic fervor) that is being provided to autocratic regimes (Saudi, Egypt, Syria, Iran) which are at the heart of many terrorists’ gripes. Namely, the US-dominated coalition in Iraq and Afghanistan.

What’s wrong with these statements?

quote:
We weren’t in Iraq on 9/11 for example…

Yes we were. Remember the No-Fly Zones? We enforced them every day for over a decade, effectively annihilating what was left of Saddam’s Air Defense Corps. We also had personnel in Umm Qasr as a part of the UNIKOM mission.

quote:
or, to use a more local example, John B. Doe who had to jump from the top of the WTC may very well have been opposed to Israel’s policies in the Middle East….

What’s your point? That the people killed on 9/11 were all over the political spectrum? Ok. Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 btw.

quote:
But people like you make this preposterous leap from the act to previous events, RIGHT OR WRONG, and the effect of doing so is to convey a sense fo legitimization.

People like me? I don’t remember legitimizing 9/11 or any other such act. Please explain my preposterous leap…or whoever’s leap it is you’re on about.

quote:
And meanwhile they continue to and will continue to attack us – that means you, me, and anybody in the West.

As we will them.

quote:
Now, I know you’re fond of calculating – oh so logically – that only .000000000003% of the Muslim world is actually responsible for terrorism, but as terrorism is carried out IN THE NAME OF ISLAM, all of these other supposedly good Muslims I would think have a responsibility – if only in their own interests – to stand the fuck up and try to do something to prevent or stop it.

Again, I cited a report of Muslim condemnation which you STILL have not addressed. Go back and read it. Hell, this morning on NPR they had an Angelican Minister and a Muslim Imam speaking together about keeping the community in London together because those who carried out such acts are trying to tear it apart.

So fucking what if it’s carried out "IN THE NAME OF ISLAM". Why are you so ready to condemn Islam because some fucking nutters are shouting "ALLAH HOOAH AL AKBAR" when they blow shit up? Do you honestly think they are representative of Muslims? If not, why do you give these fuck-nuts so much power over your world view?

Muslims stand up to this stuff ALL THE TIME. You just never read it or seek it out or it doesn’t make CNN’s Headlines so you believe it doesn’t exist. I’d argue this isn’t entirely your fault since coverage is limited and one has to go out of their way to find news like this (although the link I gave you was from the BBC) but it is your fault when you lash out and don’t take the time to seek that information which could broaden your point of view about this vast ambiguous Muslim population that you are so hasty to lash out against.

Why is it in ‘their own interests’ too? I mean, are you saying that because people like you who don’t read a lot of the Muslim condmenations that are out there are so ready to bash Islam as a whole that it’s in their interest to be louder about it so that people aren’t so ignorant about what they think?

This seems kind of lazy to me but I do think you’re right to a certain degree.

quote:
(At least be more vocal about it. When they do say something, as the Arab League did today, why does it seem so close to an empty, very political gesture?

Keep in mind who’s at the Arab League. Autocratic leaders, monarchs, and Emirs who rule pretty fiercly and have done so for a long time. These aren’t peaceniks, some are our highly-paid friends, and others are our friends despite the evidence showing that massive amounts of support for the very terrorism we are combatting comes from WITHIN their borders. Saudi Arabia for example.

What would you rather have them say anyway? I mean, that wouldn’t be so empty to you.

quote:
Please explain that to me, oh clever enlightened one. I guess it’s just because I’m unenlightened..)

I don’t think I’m enlightened but I will point out those areas that I think you have an ignorant point of view.

quote:
As I don’t see that(OK OK maybe it’s the media’s fault, partially..) happening, what should one assume? Well, sympathy, however partial, (logically..) comes to mind…

Sympathy for terrorist acts…hmmm (all from ONE google search)

http://www.al-islam….

http://www.altmuslim…

quote:
A top Iranian religious leader says suicide bombers are doomed to eternity in hell

http://c21.maxwell.a…

quote:
Al-Qa’eda appeared yesterday to have unwittingly alienated a vast spectrum of Arab opinion and helped America’s war on terrorism by attacking Muslims it considers traitors to the faith, intelligence sources in Riyadh said.

http://www.mideastne…

quote:
At noon today there will be a Service of Remembrance at St Paul’s Cathedral in solidarity with the American Community and those many British people who have been caught up in the massacre. Muslim and Jewish leaders will be among those present to remember the dead and to pray for the injured and bereaved.

http://www.london.an…

quote:
KABUL (AFX) – Afghanistan’s president Hamid Karzai Friday has strongly condemned the bombings in London, even as spokesmen for the ousted Taliban said Britons are suffering for their government’s hostility toward the Muslim world.

‘This is an attack not against a city, this is an attack not against a nation, this was an attack against all of mankind,’ the US-backed Karzai told reporters in Kabul.

Karzai said: ‘The people of Afghanistan recognize very well this pain of the British people because the people of Afghanistan were the first to suffer at the hands of the terrorism,’.

Nevertheless, in a report from Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, the secretary general of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (IOC) expressed his condolences for the bombings in London that killed, at the latest official toll, 37 people.

Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu has sent a message to Prime Minister Tony Blair expressing his ‘utmost indignation and outrage’ and condemning, ‘in the strongest terms, these horrendous acts,’ an OIC statement said.

He expressed his solidarity with Blair and the British people ‘in their resolve to fight terrorism, and uttered his confidence that the solidarity of the civilized world will overcome the scourge of terrorism,’ the statement said.

Late yesterday, the Riyadh-based Gulf Cooperation Council (GCC) said in a statement that the club of six oil-rich Gulf monarchies ‘condemns the terrorist attacks which hit the British capital in several locations this morning.’

The GCC ‘absolutely rejects the terrorism phenomenon whatever its source, location or motives’ and is bent on fighting it, said secretary general Abdulrahman al-Attiyah.

The bloc — grouping Bahrain, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia and the UAE — ‘supports all measures taken by the British government to preserve its security and stability,’ Attiyah said.

In a report from Dubai, Saudi Arabia, itself hit by a wave of terror by suspected al-Qaeda militants in the past two years, specifically said it ‘strongly condemns’ the blasts, the state SPA news agency reported citing an official source,.

Riyadh ‘reiterates that… the international community must step up efforts to combat the terrorism scourge, which now threatens our security and the security of all our peoples,’ the source said.

In the United Arab Emirates, deputy prime minister and State Minister for Foreign Affairs Sheikh Hamdan bin Zayed al-Nahayan said his country ‘condemns in the strongest possible terms these horrific crimes and declares full solidarity with the British government.’

He said Abu Dhabi also ‘supports any measures (the British government) may take to deal with’ the attacks, the state news agency WAM reported.

Kuwait denounced the ‘terrorist’ attacks in a letter to Blair from Prime Minister Sheikh Sabah al-Ahmad al-Sabah, who is currently in the US.

Sheikh Sabah expressed Kuwait’s ‘strong condemnation’ of the blasts, the state news agency KUNA said.

In addition, a source at the Qatari foreign ministry similarly condemned the ‘criminal explosions… which are terrorist acts that flout human and moral values,’ said the state Qatari News Agency (QNA).

http://www.forbes.co…

There’s more you know…

Veracocha
Veracocha's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1045
Member: 315
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

quote:
And that, despite your actually rather sophomoric reasoning,

Please explain.

HomeSkillet
HomeSkillet's profile picture
Nomad
NomadNomadNomadNomad
Eurotrip Points: 446
Member: 636
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

I’ve been thinking about this for awhile now, and the one honest truth is that no matter what happens, the terrorists will win. True, we can do our part to not buy a gas-guzzling car and to not bow to fear, etc., but it’s not enough.

If we stay the course in Iraq and Afghanistan and continue to align ourselves with Egypt, Israel, and Saudi Arabia, the attacks will continue. In fact, I believe that eventually, tourists to places such as Egypt and Jerusalem will become victims, similar to the tour bus shooting at Luxor several years ago but on a larger or more frequent scale. As it stands now, most attacks on non-military foreigners are limited to contractors, politicians, and journalists, all of whom must accept some degree of risk in their daily jobs.

If we pull our troops out and sever ties with the aforementioned countries, the radicals will eventually overthrow the existing governments and another Taliban-esque government will form in its place. They will unite and take over the remaining "liberal" Muslim countries, such as the UAE. The network of western hatred will grow and more will emigrate to Europe and, from there, to the US. The attacks may not continue on foreign soil (London, Spain, the US, etc) but the rage will manifest and grow along with the population (old habits die hard). Within the middle east, the country of Israel will be annihilated. The fact that half of Israel’s population is NOT Jewish doesn’t seem to matter. What else? As Modulis mentioned somewhere in this thread (I think) the shipments of oil to the west could be cut off. This would effect the entire world. Because of the shortage, we will now have to rely more on Ecuador and Venezuela. These small countries just can’t cut it, and inevitably their infrastructures will crumble from the added pressure by the US and others (let’s be fair and throw Canada, France, and Germany in there also).

We can and should start building more hybrid vehicles and promoting the use of alterate energy sources. I don’t think that we will ever be able to completely make the transition in time, but the reality that no one speaks about is that we have no choice. At any rate, we have to start TODAY.

It’s fucking scary.

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

I agree with you, ‘skillet. Here is one question though, I’m not proposing this, but just talking hypothetically. Suppose the US or any other western nation or Israel made a declaration to the Islamic world, that if we are struck with nuclear materials of any type, or if they were to pull off another 9/11 style attack or greater, Mecca would be nuked off the face of the planet and left radioactive for the next 1,000 years. The terrorists don’t care if they lose their life, but they do care about losing their Holy Land and their purpose for existance. Suppose we declared a mutually assured destruction pact with the Jihadists. "You destroy us, we destroy Mecca, deal?" I wonder what would happen. Would they stand down?

Once again, this is purely hypothetical.

HomeSkillet
HomeSkillet's profile picture
Nomad
NomadNomadNomadNomad
Eurotrip Points: 446
Member: 636
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

There is a part of me that likes the primal, eye-for-an-eye nature of your "hypothetical" suggestion…but it won’t work. For one thing, terrorists don’t take kindly to ultimatums. For another, the very nature of the "civilized West" is that we refuse to sink to their level. The destruction of a religious monument on foreign soil by a nation that prides itself on having freedom of religion is just not what we are all about.

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

But what good are our values of not sinking to their level if we’re dead? Do you think there’s the possibility of a 4th major war between the west(I would say Christiandom, but since Europeans are so secular these days) and Islam? Or is this actually the beginning of it?

The terrorists don’t value their lives like we do. So what could be taken away from the fanatical Moslem that he values more than his life?

Jake the Peg
Jake the Peg's profile picture
Member
MemberMember
Eurotrip Points: 121
Member: 65
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 6 years 14 weeks ago.

quote:
I agree with you, ‘skillet. Here is one question though, I’m not proposing this, but just talking hypothetically. Suppose the US or any other western nation or Israel made a declaration to the Islamic world, that if we are struck with nuclear materials of any type, or if they were to pull off another 9/11 style attack or greater, Mecca would be nuked off the face of the planet and left radioactive for the next 1,000 years. The terrorists don’t care if they lose their life, but they do care about losing their Holy Land and their purpose for existance. Suppose we declared a mutually assured destruction pact with the Jihadists. "You destroy us, we destroy Mecca, deal?" I wonder what would happen. Would they stand down?

Once again, this is purely hypothetical.

That’s a pretty stupid comment, I couldn’t even imagine an idiot like GWB proposing that course of action.

If it happened the terror would never end and you would turn the billion or so moderate muslims against the west.

jboy
jboy's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1531
Member: 113
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 6 years 36 weeks ago.

Skillet,

the analogy is the human body, it’s a complex system that requires many intricate parts to function, throught it’s life it fights infection and disease but at some point it must succumb… to a lowely virus, bacterial infection or destroy itself with cancer.

S.D.I could never work, spend trillions of dollar when the counter measures were, helium balloon warhead decoys, mirrored ICBM shells, all very cheap counter measures.

Same applies to the war on terror, we’ll have to give up so much and it will ultimately cost so much but really have no effect, we’ll still be sitting ducks, we’ll never be free…. of the millions of Muslims in our countries, we can’t shut their minds off, sure we can close borders and airports but the war need to be won in peoples minds, draconian measure only throw gasoline on the fire but alas I think we’ve passed the point of no return and we’re playing out an end game.

Terrorism will drag our civilization down, after London, a Security Threat shut down Birmingham at the weekend, a hoax phone call = 20,000 evacuated and loss of millions of pounds in business.

How long can we response to hoax calls, blowing up every bag left on public transport, each twitch means 10,000 people to the bomb shelters, can can’t do it !

Yes, 4 suicide bomber with home made explosive can cause us more grief than we can cause them, they live in poverty and strife, a holy jihad
gives them purpose and drive, we continue to live in fear, somewthing they’ve grown accustom to. We fear death, they embrace it.

On the back of that, what would you say the out come is ??

My insight into the future is this: A lock down Police State, travel, movement and civil liberties erroded…. certain areas of the world will become "no-go" zones… like S.E Asian countries as the wealth polarization becomes greater. This may be acceptable to some, other not, but it’s the ongoing side effect of a bankrrupt US/UK foreign policy in the last 50 years that totally panders to Israel.

You reap what you sow… the war on terror is being used to enforce political obidience back home… Tony Blairs national I.D scheme will breeze through parliament now after these events!

We not defending Democracy, we’re defending Capitalism and the price to be paid is Democracy… out right to comsume is all we have, we don’t even have the right not to comsume!

Skillet: VERY SCARY!

Russ
Russ's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 652
Member: 88
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 6 years 33 weeks ago.

quote:I agree with you, ‘skillet. Here is one question though, I’m not proposing this, but just talking hypothetically. Suppose the US or any other western nation or Israel made a declaration to the Islamic world, that if we are struck with nuclear materials of any type, or if they were to pull off another 9/11 style attack or greater, Mecca would be nuked off the face of the planet and left radioactive for the next 1,000 years. The terrorists don’t care if they lose their life, but they do care about losing their Holy Land and their purpose for existance. Suppose we declared a mutually assured destruction pact with the Jihadists. "You destroy us, we destroy Mecca, deal?" I wonder what would happen. Would they stand down?

Once again, this is purely hypothetical.

I think London demonstrates that it’s just a matter of time before something similar happens again – maybe in Rome, maybe in San Fran – and maybe even bigger. These are ideologically-driven terrorists who appear to have nothing to lose. What can we do with terrorists to deter them?

Well, everyone has his Achilles heel. I agree with Mod that we don’t do the kinds of things that would really put the fear of God in them. Do we send out rape squads to violate their women folk? Nope. Do we do the things they say humiliate them most, like shoving their bearded heads into women’s panties and parade them on TV? Not nearly enough. Do we defile or burn their houses of worship? NO – we provide them special protection. Instead of using the kinds of punishments that might make an impact on such people, we put them in prison with prayer rugs and Korans, then apologize profusely if we don’t offer them the proper food. Then if they’re found guilty, the worst that could happen is that they’d be executed by lethal injection. Since these punishments do not deter people who are willing to blow themselves up anyway, I just don’t think we’re putting our punishments in terms that such terrorists and potential terrorists might understand. If we want to appear a formidable opponent, we need to respond more immediately, decisively, and effectively to things like 9/11 and the Tube bombings. And we need to speak their language.

Maybe losing important religious sites is their Achilles heel. I mean, most of us would see this as unfair to peaceful Muslims and also ineffective – "who cares about a dumb building?" Well, I think the answer is that ME Muslims believe a lot more in their dumb buildings than in the sanctity of human life – even terrorists – and that if we actually vaporized a couple of important mosques somewhere immediately after any Muslim terrorist attack so that the consequence of terrorism would be 100% predictable – even to even the most illiterate and half-witted terrorist – the price of terrorism would be too high.

But terrorism will go on because the greatest powers on earth appear impotent to respond decisively and powerfully.

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

quote:
… we put them in prison with prayer rugs and Korans, then apologize profusely if we don’t offer them the proper food.

These terrorists prisoners ought to be lucky they’re not getting pig blood soup for dinner as far as I’m concerned. I agree with you, we simply are not ideologically equipped to win against them. We are technically equipped to win, but don’t have what it takes to win the long term battle, it’s like sending a gentlemen to fight against a caveman. The gentlemen obeys all the rules, never punches below the belt, doesn’t bite, scratch, doesn’t hit when his opponent is down or after the bell rings. Meanwhile his opponent is willing to use every dirty trick in the book. They simply aren’t playing the same game. Either the gentlemen will have to get down and dirty or the caveman will have to play by the rules of engagement.

quote:
Then if they’re found guilty, the worst that could happen is that they’d be executed by lethal injection. Since these punishments do not deter people who are willing to blow themselves up anyway, I just don’t think we’re putting our punishments in terms that such terrorists and potential terrorists might understand. If we want to appear a formidable opponent, we need to respond more immediately, decisively, and effectively to things like 9/11 and the Tube bombings. And we need to speak their language.

But terrorism will go on because the greatest powers on earth appear impotent to respond decisively and powerfully.

Saddam somehow held these jihadists in check. They weren’t blowing up his police stations, taking potshots at his administrators and sabotaging oil and utility lines. Whatever he did, nasty as it may been…it WORKED! We’re either going to have to start using some of Saddam’s techniques, or put someone in power over there that will, because that’s all the terrorist seem to respond to. But don’t look for that to happen, we can’t even extradite these cutthroats to Egypt for fear that they will be tortured, and then the liberals and Amnesty types will go beserk. If we aren’t willing to get down and dirty, then fuck it, let’s pack our bags and admit defeat instead of sending more men to die fighting an unwinnable war. And if we are going to stay, then screw the liberals, take off the gloves and do whatever it takes to win. That’s my opinion.

Veracocha
Veracocha's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1045
Member: 315
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

So what are you guys actually advocating with all of this?

You say we lack the moxy to respond powerfully but when I look around we’ve committed 1/4 TRILLION dollars to this so far in just the wars. We’ve taken over two countried, occupied them, and forced our will upon them and the people there. Yeah, it’s not exactly going swimmingly but how much more powerful can we act?

delfrio
delfrio's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1053
Member: 816
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 35 weeks 5 days ago.

quote:
Saddam somehow held these jihadists in check. They weren’t blowing up his police stations, taking potshots at his administrators and sabotaging oil and utility lines. Whatever he did, nasty as it may been…it WORKED! We’re either going to have to start using some of Saddam’s techniques, or put someone in power over there that will, because that’s all the terrorist seem to respond to.

Hahahaha! Well, I’m sure everyone will be glad that we went over to "liberate" the Iraqi people when we start acting exactly like guy before us.

Veracocha
Veracocha's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1045
Member: 315
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

I think the whole "Arabs only understand the language of power" kind of rhetoric is pretty lazy thinking too.

I mean, I think our problems are rooted more firmly in the ideological undertaking by very highly educated people. We don’t lack the education, we just lack a plan that makes sense in ‘reality’.

They had their go at it, they failed, we’re suffering and will suffer for it.

Time to change the plan. If some people could get past their egos, they’d probably be more successful practitioners of foreign policy and be more respected as individuals.

This doesn’t mean the plan becomes, nuke Saudi and Saddamize the locals. It means THINK PEOPLE THINK!

Too many lazy minds resorting to violence…as if THAT is a viable long term solution.

Russ
Russ's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 652
Member: 88
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 6 years 33 weeks ago.

quote:You say we lack the moxy to respond powerfully but when I look around we’ve committed 1/4 TRILLION dollars to this so far in just the wars. We’ve taken over two countried, occupied them, and forced our will upon them and the people there. Yeah, it’s not exactly going swimmingly but how much more powerful can we act?

So what now, cocha? You now see the US-led operations as a response to 9/11 terrorism?? I thought there was no connection.

Although we’ve killed thousands of terrorists and upset their applecarts all over the place, I’m not convinced that we’ve communicated this fact effectively. Have we produced graphic videos of our execution of terrorists (oh… what executions?? An obvious oversight!) Have we sought to demoralize the terrorist effort by parading their supposed misery in front of the world’s cameras, as the terrorists have sought to demoralize us – successfully I think – with their taped abuse of western captives? Unfortunately, there’s not enough execution or misery to intimidate them and too much reticence to publicize our wartime killing successes. Hard to scare them if we don’t even try.

On the other hand, you’re quite right – we’ve asserted ourselves in a dominant way that should be obvious with a look at the newspaper. There is more western presence in the Middle East than at anytime in recent history. But then, a lot of these terror guys may not understand this because they don’t read, and don’t get an accurate perspective from al-jezera. I’m sure some think the insurgents are winning.

Or maybe they are well informed and are just so ideologically driven that no message will ever deter them. Pavlov’s principles may not apply to this type of individual.

But it seems to me that we ought to give them a chance to understand – if the images that flood their lives are only those of Americans being tortured, perhaps they need to see some images of terrorists being blown to bits by the invasion forces. It’s hard to really put an end to things if you can’t use the same media tools your enemy uses.

HomeSkillet
HomeSkillet's profile picture
Nomad
NomadNomadNomadNomad
Eurotrip Points: 446
Member: 636
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

quote:
Yes, 4 suicide bomber with home made explosive can cause us more grief than we can cause them, they live in poverty and strife, a holy jihad
gives them purpose and drive, we continue to live in fear, somewthing they’ve grown accustom to. We fear death, they embrace it.

One of the most concise analyses of the current state of world affairs.

HomeSkillet
HomeSkillet's profile picture
Nomad
NomadNomadNomadNomad
Eurotrip Points: 446
Member: 636
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

So what is the next target? Poland? Another attack on the US? Biological?

And another question: If the jihadists think that all non-Muslims are infidels, will they eventually attack peaceful countries such as, say, Ecuador or Chile?

jboy
jboy's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1531
Member: 113
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 6 years 36 weeks ago.

They actually attack their own kind, Turkey springs to mind, the main aggressors are the number one target the western countries, I believe that countries that do not tamper in middle eastern affairs are pretty safe…. for now.

Veracocha
Veracocha's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1045
Member: 315
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

quote:
So what now, cocha? You now see the US-led operations as a response to 9/11 terrorism?? I thought there was no connection.

Eh? I’m missing the joke but just to be safe I don’t think of our actions as terrorism.

quote:
Although we’ve killed thousands of terrorists and upset their applecarts all over the place, I’m not convinced that we’ve communicated this fact effectively.

It’s true. We are succeeding in some areas but a lot of the imagery from this war is banned by the Bush Administration for one reason or another. You’d think we’d have more of the CNN videos of our bombing raids like in previous Gulf wars with the requisite oooh’s and ahhh’s. Sure, not the same as recording beheadings and putting them on the internet but close…purpose-wise anyway.

quote:
On the other hand, you’re quite right – we’ve asserted ourselves in a dominant way that should be obvious with a look at the newspaper. There is more western presence in the Middle East than at anytime in recent history. But then, a lot of these terror guys may not understand this because they don’t read, and don’t get an accurate perspective from al-jezera. I’m sure some think the insurgents are winning.

On the contrary, I think a lot of the people we’re actually up against in the war on terror are smart, well-read, and understand the situation very well (hard to include some Iraqis in this as it’s harder to frame their actions against us (some of them anyway) as terrorism). Hell, I’d even say that the real terrorists WANT us there en masse so that we provide them with more fuel for their fire.

quote:
Or maybe they are well informed and are just so ideologically driven that no message will ever deter them. Pavlov’s principles may not apply to this type of individual.

That sound you hear is the hammer hitting the nail on the head. Now, it’s important from here to realize that these people are NOT the same as the vast majority of the Muslim population. We can win over a lot of people eventually but these types are lost to us. They should be the focus of our efforts as far as violence goes. Then we need to get the rest of them on board in ways that use less stick and more carrot…

quote:
But it seems to me that we ought to give them a chance to understand – if the images that flood their lives are only those of Americans being tortured, perhaps they need to see some images of terrorists being blown to bits by the invasion forces. It’s hard to really put an end to things if you can’t use the same media tools your enemy uses.

On the contrary, I think one can take a look out their back window in many cases and see the implicit "we were here" sign that coalition forces tend to leave in their wake.

Veracocha
Veracocha's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1045
Member: 315
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 50 weeks ago.

Jboy is dead on.

These Islamic purists who are behind a lot of the terrorism we are seeing don’t only see westerners as apostates or whatever but they see other MUSLIMS as impure and in need of conversion. In fact, that is where a lot of their efforts (doctrinally anyway) are directed. They want to spread their version of Islam and show that other Muslims are wrong. Those Muslims who are wrong are just as guilty and killable as westerners.

Luckily these guys don’t have a huge following but it is increasing in some places and that is alarming.

This is one area where the west can really help Muslims out. If only someone intelligent enough to understand this situation could get behind some of the policy, we could encourage moderate Islam and help the VAST MAJORITY of Muslims who are secular, moderate, progressive, etc. get on their merry way in this world of ours—free of the oppression from their so-called Islamic brethren and free from the aggression of apparently well-meaning but inevitably ill-fated military actions on behalf of the ‘coalition’.

Tinsie
Tinsie's profile picture
Traveler
TravelerTravelerTraveler
Eurotrip Points: 218
Member: 237
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 10 weeks ago.

quote:This is one area where the west can really help Muslims out. If only someone intelligent enough to understand this situation could get behind some of the policy, we could encourage moderate Islam and help the VAST MAJORITY of Muslims who are secular, moderate, progressive, etc. get on their merry way in this world of ours—free of the oppression from their so-called Islamic brethren and free from the aggression of apparently well-meaning but inevitably ill-fated military actions on behalf of the ‘coalition’.

Excellently put. I totally agree.