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70 replies
Hurricane Katrina
dustinkyle
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horrible.

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so are many other fucking things in the world.

niger is worse.

south africa is worse.

tsnuami was worse

this looks like is might be bad, but what about Ivan last year? that was worse. Of course my heart goes out to those who are bracing the storm and who are affected, but I can’t help but feel that those in places who started out with less to begin with deserve more attention…since newsworthy stories in this world appear to have some sort of "hierarchy". Hey everyone, guess what? Human suffering is quantitative! How about that!

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quote:
horrible.

It was only a category 1 storm. No big deal. I’m sure south beach is back to its normal hedonism by now.

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It’s Category 3-4 now and my wife is directly in its path…

Not good.

New Orleans could be truly fucked.

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Hope the wife is going to be okay vera.

However, this I cannot resist :

No matter what, it appears that when Katrina makes her appearance, the Waves will be with her.

I’m so sorry for that.

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Heh, yeah she’ll be fine I think. She is on the business side of the storm though (east)…that is, beyond the eye itself.

They’re saying she’ll be in the shelter until Thursday at this point.

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The highest level Hurricane on the S.S. scale is 5, but they were calling Katrina a 5 & a half earlier on Sunday.. However, the 175MPH winds have slowed a bit – to 165MPH in the past several hours. I have been to N. Orleans twice, and I can tell you – they be in trouble!!! Many cites in the world with flooding issues (Houston, TX, Venice, etc.) – are 2 to 4 ft. below sea level… New Orleans is like a "soup bowl", and parts of the city are 6 ft. below… Ouch! When they levee’s are breached, they could have as much as 15 to 20 ft. of water in spots. Worse yet, the eye of Katrina appears to be ready to make land-fall just to the West (left) of N.O. This will cause that heavier "right front" quadrent of the storm to batter N.O. and South Western Mississippi with a ton of rain & wind… However, I looked at the Bourbon Street online cam’s a couple of times this morning – the place is a ghost town!

I am leaving from EWR with $4000 for 9 days

MunichBeerBoy

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quote:
so are many other fucking things in the world.

niger is worse.

south africa is worse.

tsnuami was worse

this looks like is might be bad, but what about Ivan last year? that was worse. Of course my heart goes out to those who are bracing the storm and who are affected, but I can’t help but feel that those in places who started out with less to begin with deserve more attention…since newsworthy stories in this world appear to have some sort of "hierarchy". Hey everyone, guess what? Human suffering is quantitative! How about that!

Um, my dear, you forgot Darfur, Sudan!

Ugh! Hello! Before we berate dustinkyle for omitting the other stuff, I gotta get you on this one, hope. Yes, Sudan, is pretty fucking bad!!

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http://weather.unisy…

looks to me like it is tracking due north now and might even turn back east toward Mobile, Alabama and the Florida Panhandle …

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I have acquaintances in the Panhandle (we are moving there by the end of October) and they say so far it is gusty with occasional strong showers. Likely there will be flooding, and beaches stripped of what sand was left after Hurricane Dennis, which in some spots was worse than Ivan.
Katrina has been downgraded to Cat 4, still plenty strong. Wouldn’t want to be in NOLA right now.

Unfortunate people in other disastrous places may well deserve more attention, and I trust we all do our part to help others whose disasters might be larger in measure, while their headlines are in the backpages of the newspaper.

But human nature being what it is, we might focus more on something that is happening in our own backyard, with or without the help of the media. This storm is something that can affect us personally, and yeah, it really is horrible for some people.

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quote:so are many other fucking things in the world.

niger is worse.

south africa is worse.

tsnuami was worse

Yes, and gang rape is worse than rape. So what? Can’t people here express a little sympathy without someone belittling them? I guess not. Sheesh.

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This is such a tragedy.

It seems there’s almost as many killed as the number of americans killed by small handguns in three days !!

Or the number of african kids starved to death in three minutes …

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Looks like New Orleans got slammed like the Herr’s Ass! Just Kidding Herr!

quote:It was only a category 1 storm. No big deal. I’m sure south beach is back to its normal hedonism by now.

Not quite yet. My folks have property in Miami and they were saying they didnt get too much dammage. Some trees etc.

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As we get more information about this disaster, it’s looking more and more serious. A whole city has damn near underwater. There are over a million people in that area and who the hell knows where all these people will go? Sewage system is destroyed, fresh water system destroyed, no electricity, it’s hot and humid, bodies are reported to be floating around leaving possibilities for disease. Many police and other emergency workers have no home to return to. I don’t know the hell is going to come of this. Shootings and lootings are now going on with the lawlessness.

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quote:
As we get more information about this disaster, it’s looking more and more serious. A whole city has damn near underwater. There are over a million people in that area and who the hell knows where all these people will go? Sewage system is destroyed, fresh water system destroyed, no electricity, it’s hot and humid, bodies are reported to be floating around leaving possibilities for disease. Many police and other emergency workers have no home to return to. I don’t know the hell is going to come of this. Shootings and lootings are now going on with the lawlessness.

Weird thing is, I’ve read that soldiers in Iraq/Afghanistan are reading about and fretting over their loved ones in the Gulf states. Whereas before, it was the other way around.

Yeah, it really gets me sick to read/see/hear about looters. (sighs)

I guess it’s another part of human nature, though.

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quote: it’s hot and humid, bodies are reported to be floating around leaving possibilities for disease.

Couple of hundred? Big deal! hardly a Tsunami or African scale disaster is it ??

Consider this, pretty much an annual occurance in Bangladesh on a scale x1000 to this but it hardly ever makes page 14, who gives a fuck if New Orleans is a bigger puddle than usual.?

Get some perspective you idiots, 100,00 civilians have died in a US man made disaster in Iraq so don’t expect any sympathy or help.

quote:
Shootings and lootings are now going on with the lawlessness.

Well, well, I seem to remember unaffected Sri Lankans gathering food and blankets for those devastated and taking in refugees where they could, and what do we see in a country of greedy, gun totting people? No surpirse really, Americans are money grabbing selfish Zombies, this behaviour was to be expected.

This is what happens when the masters leave the sheep to be, they knew about this for nearly a week but didn’t bother their arses mobilizing any relief effort, just imagine if it had bellowed up to the expected Catagory 5, with 170mph+ winds and higher surge tide ??

You got off rather lightly I’d say. I believe the people were left blowing in the wind to create more fear and distraction, to divert attention away from Iraq and the economy.

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OMG,

It’s one of those "one-in-a-million" scenarios I’ve seen on Discovery Channel documentaries, and now it’s real…a gorgeous historic city in disaster.


beach-lunch-siesta-beach-shower-dinner-nightlife-repeat

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Total devastation of an American city. Talk about a terrorist’s wet dream!!!!! No pun intended.

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Wouldn’t surprise me if Al Queda attempted to strike while this disaster is going on.

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Yeah and 9/11 is just around the corner…

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You two sound like a couple of hysterical yentas. Shut up about Al Qaeda already!

"And now, folks, we return to our previously-recorded program, ‘The Apprentice’"………

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quote:
You two sound like a couple of hysterical yentas. Shut up about Al Qaeda already!

"And now, folks, we return to our previously-recorded program, ‘The Apprentice’"………

Anymore hysterical than those on the left now blaming Bush for the hurricane because he didn’t sign Kyoto?

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That sound you hear is the hammer hitting the nail on the head.

quote:
September 1, 2005
Waiting for a Leader

George W. Bush gave one of the worst speeches of his life yesterday, especially given the level of national distress and the need for words of consolation and wisdom. In what seems to be a ritual in this administration, the president appeared a day later than he was needed. He then read an address of a quality more appropriate for an Arbor Day celebration: a long laundry list of pounds of ice, generators and blankets delivered to the stricken Gulf Coast. He advised the public that anybody who wanted to help should send cash, grinned, and promised that everything would work out in the end.

We will, of course, endure, and the city of New Orleans must come back. But looking at the pictures on television yesterday of a place abandoned to the forces of flood, fire and looting, it was hard not to wonder exactly how that is going to come to pass. Right now, hundreds of thousands of American refugees need our national concern and care. Thousands of people still need to be rescued from imminent peril. Public health threats must be controlled in New Orleans and throughout southern Mississippi. Drivers must be given confidence that gasoline will be available, and profiteering must be brought under control at a moment when television has been showing long lines at some pumps and spot prices approaching $4 a gallon have been reported.

Sacrifices may be necessary to make sure that all these things happen in an orderly, efficient way. But this administration has never been one to counsel sacrifice. And nothing about the president’s demeanor yesterday – which seemed casual to the point of carelessness – suggested that he understood the depth of the current crisis.

While our attention must now be on the Gulf Coast’s most immediate needs, the nation will soon ask why New Orleans’s levees remained so inadequate. Publications from the local newspaper to National Geographic have fulminated about the bad state of flood protection in this beloved city, which is below sea level. Why were developers permitted to destroy wetlands and barrier islands that could have held back the hurricane’s surge? Why was Congress, before it wandered off to vacation, engaged in slashing the budget for correcting some of the gaping holes in the area’s flood protection?

It would be some comfort to think that, as Mr. Bush cheerily announced, America "will be a stronger place" for enduring this crisis. Complacency will no longer suffice, especially if experts are right in warning that global warming may increase the intensity of future hurricanes. But since this administration won’t acknowledge that global warming exists, the chances of leadership seem minimal.

NYTimes

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quote:
quote:
You two sound like a couple of hysterical yentas. Shut up about Al Qaeda already!

"And now, folks, we return to our previously-recorded program, ‘The Apprentice’"………

Anymore hysterical than those on the left now blaming Bush for the hurricane because he didn’t sign Kyoto?

Or those on the right blaming liberals for too much government spending? hahaha. Well, they can say that any more, can they?

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I’m pretty sure this is effectively the worst natural disaster in the history of my country. It’s not just New Orleans that is completely fucked up, it’s dozens of other cities near the coast large and small! And it’s not just the stupid people with who could have left but didn’t that lost everything including loved ones.
I know people down there, and this is actually, from what they have described probebly even worsethan it "looks".
I hope you imagine yourselfin this situation before you go trying to downplay the victems suffering. That is seriously NOT cool.

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With the lack of timely reponse to this humanitarian crisis by the federal government, this event has become a teaching tool to Al Quaeda and other terrorists thus showing them that the government cannot handle this catastrophe even in a small, poor city of America. What would happen if a significant city like New York or Chicago were in such devastation from the likes of a smart bomb? This country would be turned upside down and all bets are on that all the terrorists are glued to the tv wathing all these tragic events like looting and civil unrest unfold in New Orleans. They are learing!!!!!

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"Allaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah U Akbar!"……..KABOOM!!!!

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Message to all suicide bombers:

Refer to "Sickboy in Hell" thread.

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O’Reilly, on his show last night:

"A lot of the people — a lot of the people who stayed wanted to do this destruction. They figured it out. And that’s — I’m not surprised."

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quote: "Allaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah U Akbar!"……..KABOOM!!!!

Not that we didn’t have it before, but finaly proof some people have concept of reality.

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Seriously though, with the terrorism thing, doesn’t it make you wonder what the hell would happen if a dirty bomb DID go off in a MAJOR American city? I mean, New Orleans is like 1/2 a million people right? New York City is upwards of, shit, 9-10 million depending on where you’re drawing lines??

Is Homeland Security, FEMA, and the billions we’ve spent only earned us a response to one of the disasters they have been speaking about for years that is at least 5 days late??

I seriously hope Americans don’t stop asking the right questions about this stuff.

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From www.juancole.com

quote:
Message from a New Orleans refugee:

‘ I am emailing everyone I can to say this (it is 9:53 a.m., Thursday, September 1, three days after the storm):

Please contact any gov’t. officials you know, and pressure them to get more troops and resources here. People are still dying. The radio station (there’s only one now) is still getting calls from people in attics. Memorial Medical Center on Napoleon Ave. is now out of water and people are dying there (this directly from the only radio station that works).

The body count will be staggering. Please note that no casualties have been announced from Orleans, St. Bernard, or Plaquemines parishes. Those will be the worst, and we know nothing.

I heard from refugees from St. Bernard Parish. They say that there are dead people everywhere. St. Bernard Parish was declared "gone" by news announcers.

It is three days after the storm, and the response seems inadequate.

"We" (I don’t really feel like part of an extended "we" right now) are the wealthiest country in the world. CNN just reported that there are STILL no active duty military troops on the ground in New Orleans, this after days of looting and violence. Police who have been photographed looting are still working in uniform. A friend of a friend is a photographer and went back in with a video camera, following looters around. They were happy to be on camera. He has it all on tape, including the police participating.

If American democracy still functions, please pressure your representatives, anyone you can. This is the real game, and things aren’t happening as they should. The next time there is an earthquake, flood, or terrorist attack, this could be you.

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Hell, if a dirty bomb DID go off in a major American city… eh?

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Mayor Ray Nagin’s own words in a disturbing interview:

http://www.msnbc.msn…

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New Orleans is a relatively small city, but it’s not that small. Within the city limits, there are less than half a million residents. And they always quote this figure on the news, but they don’t take into account the suburbs of New Orleans. All together, an estimated 1 million people fled the New Orleans area before the arrival of Hurricane Katrina, and an additional [approximately] 200,000 stayed behind.

The urban areas of New York and Los Angeles each have well over 10 million residents, including northeast New Jersey and southwest Connecticut for New York, and Orange/Ventura/western San Bernardino/Riverside counties for L.A. Chicago is at approximately 8 to 9, maybe more – official Chicago "metropolian area" statistics don’t take northwest Indiana into account, as well as some of the heavily populated areas in the so-called "collar counties." The other 7 urban areas in America’s "big 10" are Washington, San Francisco/Oakland, Boston, Detroit, Dallas/Ft. Worth, Atlanta, and Philadelphia.

New Orleans takes up less space than New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles, thus it’s easier for the entire city to be affected by some kind of disaster.

But to add my international and political perspective:

This is a horrible tragedy that has got me shocked and stunned but as the days go by and we watch the aftermath, and the response, there are several things that need to be put in perspective.

First off, it’s very surprising (but welcome) to see criticism of the government in the mass media…even if limited, that NY Times article (which was brilliantly written) was something I never expected. Despite this, the vast majority of media refrain from criticizing national authorities on their response to Hurricane Katrina…just as they always do in any kind of national crisis or foreign policy crisis (like war). The media is always the first to rally behind a system that benefits their corprate interests an international bias. Therefore, this NY Times article is a breath of fresh air.

That said, this is a disaster that the world is watching and many of us cannot help but to compare it to other major recent natural disasters. A comparison to the tsunami has been brought up several times both here and in the media, but in all fairness, the tsunami wiped out everyting and almost everyone in some areas (like Aceh), thus there was nothing and no one left to loot.

I will, however, make a comparison to two major devastating disasters that ocurred in the 1990s, both of them earthquakes that killed thousands of people: the 1995 earthquake of Kobe, Japan, and the 1999 earthquake in Izmit, Turkey. Both are large cities, destroyed by a nutural disaster, with thousands of fatalities and rotting bodies, yet in neither of these cases did we see the looting, rapes, and chaos that we see in New Orleans.

What the fuck is going on here? And what kind of image is America projecting to the world?

It is unfair to blame the people left behind in New Orleans, however, there is that handful of people who are causing problems for everyone else. And it inclines me to question not the moral judgement of these thugs, but rather, the cultural, political, logistical, and economic systems that created and harbor these monsters. In a society bombarded by Hollywood’s superficiality, it is no surprise that people are looting superficial goods such as TV sets. Looting for food, bottled water, even clothes, blankets, and mattresses, on the other hand, is completely justified. Even a car so you can get the hell out of there (if you get past the water). But what the fuck are you gonna do with a TV? This is to say the least, folks. What about the rapes?? Where can we attribute that too? Again, this was not a problem neither in Kobe nor Izmit.

Which raises the following question:

Well, we can’t handle ourselves in a natural disaster. We can’t respond quickly to a natural disaster. Hell, we don’t use the proper technology (whether or not we have that capability) to prevent a major American city that sits below sea level from being flooded and obliviated. Who the hell are we, then, to preach to the world that we are the best, that our was is the way, and that we are {supposedly) "saving the world?" For all our arrogance and snobishness, we really put our foot in our mouth this time. Let alone the invasion Iraq. And yet millions of people continue to blindly follow an administration that epitomizes the conceited and arrogant image that America has developed.

Take for example last year’s Athens Olympics Games, momentally succesful, yet wildly expensive because of the fresh terrorism fears that the American media threw at them every month during the 7-year-long Olympic preparations. The security systems bill alone ended up being around $1.5 billion, more than any previous Olympic Games had ever cost in their entirety. All this in a country that did not even participate in the invasion of Iraq, in fact as vocally against it (Greece held the rotating EU presidency at the time and tried using diplomacy to stop the invasion), and has traditionally had excellent relations with Arab countries. There was absolutely no chance in hell that Al Qaeda wanted to strike Athens, especially since OBL specifically said that the countries on his hit-list were those whose governments supported the US-led invasion of Iraq (and promises were kept: Britain and at the time Spain were struck, not Greece nor Sweden nor Argentina for that matter). Yet, American arrogance prevailed, predicting doom and gloom in Athens, on everything from security to transportation to logistics…all areas where Athens excelled, and where hypocritically America massively failed at the pathetic Atlanta Olympics in 1996 which were dogged by let us not forget logisistical and transport problems as well as terrorism. And yet we Americans continue in an arrogant and conceited fashion to parade outselves as the smartest, most brilliant, most moral, most civilized, and most enlightened nation on the face of the earth. How such a supposedly "enlightened" society believes everything authorities tell them and questions nothing, sure beats me.

That’s to say the least, folks. Don’t forget election mayhem, a corrupt justice system (that condemns thousands of people to capital punishment, many of them found iccocent after they’ve been executed), and inadequate security in a country where not one, but FOUR airliners were hijacked in a single day on September 11, 2001.

Which takes me back to an administration that has fucked up royally on all fronts. They cut funding to improve New Orleans’ flood protection infrastructure, and now it’s biting us all in the ass. Keep in mind folks, that funding has been cut on several things, yet increased on a gargantuan military system that has bases in several foreign, sovereign countries, and is taken advantage of by corporate interests always on the look out for the next global gold-rush.

Do any of you remember the tsunami thread, and how many posters were bitching that the US was giving finiancial aid (a measly amount, which was later vastly increased after international citicism, and after the EU, India, and Japan had offered much much more)…and yet, for all the bitching we’ve done, several countries have steped up and offered aid to us with the current Katrina disaster. Should we, perhaps, as a people, swallow this uninformed anger we have towards the rest of the world, and be more trusting?

Should we maybe look, not only to rebuild one of our most beautiful and historic cities, and to provide assistance to our affected compatriots, but also to take a good look at ourselves, at the image we’re projecting, and yes, even be open to external criticism, just as we constantly and unashamedly criticize everyone else? The patriotic thing to do is not to blindly and diligently believe and do as we’re told, but to raise questions and try to improve ourselves. If you don’t like the way America is, no don’t leave. Don’t go to North Korea, Stay home and fight for change. That’s the patriotic thing to do. If people never challenged the system, there would still be slavery.

Shoud we, perhaps, accept the fact that our lifestyle is causing environmental catastrophe? Should we maybe invest more in renewable energy and public transportation? Should we maybe sign the Kyoto protocol and acknowledge that Global Warming is real? Should we maybe stop buying ego-boosting SUVs? Should we maybe invest more in high-speed rail for heavily populated areas like the Northeast, the eastern Midwest, and California? Should we perhaps live in more compact cities? Should we, maybe, reuse, reduce, and recycle as much as possible? Should we accept the fact that if we continue living like this, and avoid change, not only will our lifestyle and our system become antiquated in 50 years’ time (for all the rhetoric of being the "most advanced" society on earth), but that we will also have an environmental impact on the rest of the world, because enviromental destruction does not stop at international borders?

Should we maybe put ourselves in perspective and quit being so conceited?


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Good questions.

Here is an UNBELIEVABLE piece from CNN!

The media has grown balls all of a sudden.

http://www.cnn.com/2…

What was said vs. What was happening

Damning truths…

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My hero:

www.cnn.com/2005/US/…

Among others like Nagin and even C…N…N.

I’m glad this isn’t being swept under the rug.

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quote:The media is always the first to rally behind a system that benefits their corprate interests an international bias.

On the contrary, it is in the interests of the media to criticize and create controversy. Sells papers when you can polarize people.

quote:And it inclines me to question not the moral judgement of these thugs, but rather, the cultural, political, logistical, and economic systems that created and harbor these monsters. In a society bombarded by Hollywood’s superficiality, it is no surprise that people are looting superficial goods such as TV sets. Looting for food, bottled water, even clothes, blankets, and mattresses, on the other hand, is completely justified. Even a car so you can get the hell out of there (if you get past the water). But what the fuck are you gonna do with a TV? This is to say the least, folks. What about the rapes?? Where can we attribute that too? Again, this was not a problem neither in Kobe nor Izmit.

Why would it be wrong to question the morals of people shooting at police, raping women, and snatching TV’s?

But yes – the system has contributed to such morals. I’ve heard that the eternally poor wanted to wait for the first of their month to collect their welfare checks. Perpetual welfare is very bad training for moral behavior. And what judge let these absolute thugs out of prison early, thugs who obviously cannot live among you or me in the general population? I’m sure they chose to stay in NO so that they could terrorize and pilfer. Our systems definitely bear some responsibility.

quote:American arrogance prevailed, predicting doom and gloom in Athens, on everything from security to transportation to logistics…all areas where Athens excelled

So you’re pissed at the fact that a few security specialists raised doubts about Greece’s ability to carry this off? America is arrogant because a handful of Americans had doubts? And what if these specialists and their doubts actually contributed to the security successes in Athens?? Ever cross your mind?

But the larger comment you’re making with your comparison is ridiculous. A Tsunami could wipe out Seattle tomorrow, a giant meteor could hit Chicago. Are you saying that America should never share its techincal/technological expertise with other countries or prompt them to do things a certain way because America cannot handle every possible disaster on its own? Keep foreign nationals out of our grad schools? Keep all our achievements to ourselves? Yeah, whatever.

quote:And yet we Americans continue in an arrogant and conceited fashion to parade outselves as the smartest, most brilliant, most moral, most civilized, and most enlightened nation on the face of the earth.

Well, when I parade my country like this (and I don’t, really), I certainly am not including you among the enlightened. There are MANY things we don’t do perfectly, you dumb twit. Just have a look around. Who says this exactly, anyway? I mean, you really don’t have to pull a level 5 Hurricane out of your ass to prove that America is less than perfect. What about test scores, or obesity?

Some of the people who became aware of Katrina in advance clearly couldn’t get out. But the people who CHOSE to stay there – people who probably are very very stupid (or evil) – were probably laughing it off before the storm hit. They don’t watch TV or listen to the radio or read the paper? Of course they do. Many had ample warning – and orders from authorities and transportation opportunities – to leave, but chose to stay. They are the same ones who grew up ignoring what teachers told them to do, never taking a bath unless it rained, having unprotected sex with drug addicts, dropping out of school, basically ignoring authority and rules and regiment and refusing advice and help from others. Now it’s Bush’s fault or the governor’s fault or whatever, huh? I mean, 1 in 5 Americans believes the sun rotates around the earth; a good percentage smokes, eats too much, and goes into debt for no good reason. There are just a lot of stupid people that no one else can really take responsibility for. How do you save the self-destructive?

In some ways, disasters like hurricanes are a way to thin the herd. It would be nice to save everybody, but nature has its own ways. Like with you, beach, I mean, how does someone as dumb as you ever have sex with members of its own species? What is your stupid obsession with American arrogance? What kind of issue is that? What does it fucking matter?

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Cocha – any old grist for political gain. You bottom-feeder.

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quote:
First off, it’s very surprising (but welcome) to see criticism of the government in the mass media…even if limited, that NY Times article (which was brilliantly written) was something I never expected. Despite this, the vast majority of media refrain from criticizing national authorities on their response to Hurricane Katrina…just as they always do in any kind of national crisis or foreign policy crisis (like war).

This is utter rubbish. Don’t make me have to go to google and pull up legions of articles from the "big 5" NY Times, LA Times, Wash Post, TIME and Newsweek that have articles and op-eds critical of both Bush and the war. Why do you people on the left constantly rehash this shit about the media all being in lockstep with Bush when the majority of the media consists of Democrats anyhow. There is only one major paper that even comes close to being in lockstep with the president, and that’s the Wall Street Journal, but they don’t attempt to hide the fact that they’re a conservative newspaper.

quote:
The media is always the first to rally behind a system that benefits their corprate interests an international bias. Therefore, this NY Times article is a breath of fresh air.

Post the link of this NYT article, I’d like to see what it says.

quote:
That said, this is a disaster that the world is watching and many of us cannot help but to compare it to other major recent natural disasters. A comparison to the tsunami has been brought up several times both here and in the media, but in all fairness, the tsunami wiped out everyting and almost everyone in some areas (like Aceh), thus there was nothing and no one left to loot.

True, the tsunami was undoubtedly many times worse.

quote:
I will, however, make a comparison to two major devastating disasters that ocurred in the 1990s, both of them earthquakes that killed thousands of people: the 1995 earthquake of Kobe, Japan, and the 1999 earthquake in Izmit, Turkey. Both are large cities, destroyed by a nutural disaster, with thousands of fatalities and rotting bodies, yet in neither of these cases did we see the looting, rapes, and chaos that we see in New Orleans.

What the fuck is going on here? And what kind of image is America projecting to the world?

You also didn’t see the same after the disasters in Indonesia and India. The people wading through water in New Orleans are wealthy in comparison to those ravaged by the tsunami. Yet their poverty didn’t cause them riot, rape and attack the people trying to save them. The point I’m making is that poverty doesn’t have a damn thing to do with the violence we’re seeing in New Orleans. It’s ENTIRELY ABOUT MORAL VALUES. How much do you want to bet that those who are church members were not the ones out there shooting at helicopters and raping women?

quote:
It is unfair to blame the people left behind in New Orleans,

I don’t blame those who were victims. I DO blame those that were victimizers, and I like I said yesterday, the son of a bitches should be hung by their balls from lamposts and left to dry if they were found shooting at people and raping.

quote:
however, there is that handful of people who are causing problems for everyone else. And it inclines me to question not the moral judgement of these thugs, but rather, the cultural, political, logistical, and economic systems that created and harbor these monsters.

I’ll tell you what cultural and sociological systems created these monsters, how about violent music that glorifies criminality and thug life, how about the lack of fathers raising boys to be decent men? How about dropping out of high school? How about kids having kids? How about incompetent parenting or little parenting at all? Liberals want to act as if more government funding is some magic wand that’ll make these cultural problems go away, but they don’t know what the hell they’re talking about because the only thing they know about the ghetto and it’s inhabants are what they read in a book in college. I actually have lived in the ghetto, witnessed the attitudes and have family that lives there. I also have family members that are very successful and I see how the differences in values and life choices have led people down different paths. My family was once poor as well, but worked their way out of it by finding opportunities. Not everything is explainable in this post-marxist socio-economic rationale for human behavior.

quote:
In a society bombarded by Hollywood’s superficiality, it is no surprise that people are looting superficial goods such as TV sets. Looting for food, bottled water, even clothes, blankets, and mattresses, on the other hand, is completely justified. Even a car so you can get the hell out of there (if you get past the water). But what the fuck are you gonna do with a TV? This is to say the least, folks. What about the rapes?? Where can we attribute that too? Again, this was not a problem neither in Kobe nor Izmit.

Hollywood has nothing to do with it. It’s simply the desire to get something for nothing with no fear of getting caught.

quote:
Which raises the following question:

Well, we can’t handle ourselves in a natural disaster. We can’t respond quickly to a natural disaster. Hell, we don’t use the proper technology (whether or not we have that capability) to prevent a major American city that sits below sea level from being flooded and obliviated. Who the hell are we, then, to preach to the world that we are the best, that our was is the way, and that we are {supposedly) "saving the world?"

Who has been &quotreaching" this to the world? I think you’re relying on cliches. Most Americans don’t give a damn about preaching anything to the world. Most don’t give a damn what the world does or thinks anyhow, yet alone preach to them. Most are just going about their lives and trying to make money. The US does hold itself up as a model democracy, but so what? Castro holds his communism up as ideal, Prince Abdullah holds his Islamofacist nation up as the ideal, the Swedes hold their socialism up as the ideal. You know what, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

quote:
Take for example last year’s Athens Olympics Games, momentally succesful, yet wildly expensive because of the fresh terrorism fears that the American media threw at them every month during the 7-year-long Olympic preparations. The security systems bill alone ended up being around $1.5 billion, more than any previous Olympic Games had ever cost in their entirety. All this in a country that did not even participate in the invasion of Iraq, in fact as vocally against it (Greece held the rotating EU presidency at the time and tried using diplomacy to stop the invasion), and has traditionally had excellent relations with Arab countries.

Gee Beach, there were many nations other than the US involved in some way with the war in Iraq, either by having troops there at some point or contributing in some logistical way. These same nations were at the Olympics, but you must typically put a pathological anti-American bias on everything. Must I post the list of all the nations involved in someway with the war in Iraq? Furthermore, many nations that didn’t support the war in Iraq supported the war in Afghanistan, to the mind of the throat-slitters that attacked us, that is just as much a crime. To hear you talk, you think the US is the only nation in the damn world that has any security threats from terrorism. Russia had no part in the war and they were attacked by terrorists a year ago. Was Germany fighting the Muslims when there was a terrorist attack at the Munich Olympics?

quote:
That’s to say the least, folks. Don’t forget election mayhem, a corrupt justice system (that condemns thousands of people to capital punishment, many of them found iccocent after they’ve been executed),

Name some people that have been found to be innocent after executed. I’d love to see your extensive list. I’m not talking people from 150 years ago, I’m talking in recent history. You won’t find any.

quote:
and inadequate security in a country where not one, but FOUR airliners were hijacked in a single day on September 11, 2001.

Maybe if we’d had some Moslem profiling in the airports(which you libs and the ACLU complain about), things might have had a different outcome. I’ll tell you what though, there’s no way 19 middle eastern men are getting on an American jet now without a serious look.

quote:
Do any of you remember the tsunami thread, and how many posters were bitching that the US was giving finiancial aid (a measly amount, which was later vastly increased after international citicism,

There you go with your anti-American spin-doctoring of everything under the sun. I guess you’re talking about the small amount of money that Colin Powell specifically stated was only a preliminary donation, in which more was to follow right?

quote:
and after the EU, India, and Japan had offered much much more)…and yet, for all the bitching we’ve done, several countries have steped up and offered aid to us with the current Katrina disaster. Should we, perhaps, as a people, swallow this uninformed anger we have towards the rest of the world, and be more trusting?

Uninformed anger at the rest of the world? You are a real piece of work. Maybe you ought to just pack your bags and move abroad, because you apparently can’t stand the people you live amongst.

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Russ, WTF?? This is one of the worse posts I have read from you, and that is saying a lot!!! Why are you so afraid of asking your own questions?

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Cocha – any old grist for political gain. You bottom-feeder.

Bottom feeder eh? Please explain.

Does anyone…EVER…deserve criticism when it comes to you or is there always an excuse and some pathetic ad hominem you can launch to preserve your blindness?

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Actually, Jester, I thought it was sort of clever for a man who’s worked more than a full day and had several drinks to start off the weekend.

I have "questions" about how things have been handled on the Gulf Coast. But they really aren’t so important at this moment. If the ‘cane damage was so predictable and the disaster of the broken levee was so imminent, why didn’t the governor and legislature act to prevent the problem long ago? Why did local authorities not act with greater haste and immediacy once they saw what was coming? Well, I suspect EVERYONE was TOTALLY surprised by all of this. The fact that the media and the left are pounding the federal government at this point, with very few real facts in hand, is ample evidence that all these questions are just political.

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It’s not just the media and the left you twit. Pay attention!

It’s EV-ER-Y-ONE.

I refer everyone to my post at:

http://www.eurotrip….

As the best response and apparently prescient post to Russ’ comments.

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quote: Cocha – any old grist for political gain. You bottom-feeder.

Ooh, I love playing "take things out of context and name calling!!!"

My turn!

Bitter old one trick pony racist!

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Imagine an Iraqi watching this, thinking "and these are the people who are supposed to rebuild my country".

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Russ, Mod,

It’s so like you guys to pesonally attack me for raising good questions. And, as I predicted, you are urging me to leave the country. That is the typical response used by right-wing nationalists such as yourselves in order to silence dissent, and deny the fact that there are massive problems in what we claim is a perfect utopia. The current crisis in New Orleans highlights the areas where the United States falls short, in addition to an incredibly corrupt government, corporate system, and judicial system, all which are used as tools by corporate and individual interests to advance their own agenda. Even if you believe that George W. Bush is sincere in what he claims he’s doing in the Middle East, it’s preposterous to naively believe that oil, arms, financial, and infrastructure firms woudln’t back the war (and use the mass media to promote it) for their own industrial and financial purposes. I can’t honestly think of two more naive and completely brainwashed people in all of Eurotrip.com, and it’s frightening and maddening that millions of people like you exist throughout this country, and in other countries as well. You accept and diligently do everything you are told, despite massive evidence that points otherwise in regards to the official propaganda we are being fed, and yet you adamantly stick to a belief system based on nothing else but your own theories: drawn partly from the propaganda fed to us by the administration and the industrial-war complex that brought it to power in 2000 and 2004, and partly on your own nationalist and culturally biased worldviews.

As Jester says, you’re avoiding self-criticism. Neither of you have lived abroad, therefore, you have absoutely no clue how much the United States, its government, universities, institutions, and mass media constantly criticize foreign countries on everything they do internally and externally, and I’m not talking about basketcase dictatorships here…I’m talking normal industrialized and democratic societies. The reason you don’t realize this is because the US media doesn’t scrutinize every detail in State Dept/Pentagon/Congressional committee reports, or things said/done by independent institutions, therefore you are unaware of what is being said and done on our behalf. But you can bet on it, it will be plastered all over that particular country’s news, and will be a topic of discussion in their mass media.

The point I’m trying to make is that we think way too highly of ourselves, and yet look at the situation in New Orleans, and compare it to Izmit and Kobe. And who said poverty has anything to do with it? Now that you raise that, Mod, I don’t rule that out, but I didn’t mention it either. You are the one who brought it up. And as far as the culture being responsible for this lawlessness, such as families with no fathers, videos that glorify violence, etc…did you expect me to disagree with you here? As I said in my original post which I urge you to go back and reread -because apparently you are unable to read between the lines was that one of the things I am questioning is the very culture that created these monsters…pop culture included. And who promotes this violence-glorifying, social-degradation pop culture, Mod? Is it the Mother Jones magazine? Is it Greenpeace? Is it the NAACP? No, it’s the corporate world that controls the mass media and projects a glorified thug lifestyle to the general population. The Christian right, on the other hand, completely clueless about the root of this problem, wrongly blames the left, when they should be blaming the corporate right, their unholy ally.

As far as news is concerned, Russ and Mod, it may be in the mass media’s corporate interests to "create controversy" maybe about an intern having oral sex with the president, or about abortion, or trivial matters like gay marriage. But how many of the mass media overtly opposed the invasion of Iraq in 2003? They all ralied behind it, and projected it as ludicrous to think otherwise. These media corporations are controlled by higher interests either directly owned by arms/infrastructure/oil firms or by doing business with them in advertising. Therefore, expect lots of "controversy" on gay marriage and "race" issues (of course, they never go in depth), but very little -if any questioning of foreign policy, until years later when everything being fucked up and it can no longer be kept a secret by the government-industry complex. Wake up and smell the oil folks, and quit being so fucking brainwashed.

I have told you several times before, Mod, that I probably agree with you on the majority of social issues (and you too Russ), yet you always wrongly divert blame. For all it’s worth, this country is suppressing its own culture, and then we parade ourselves as the "advanced, cultureless, ethnicless" society with no "backwards" customs whatsoever. In projecting ourselves as "culturally" moderm, kind of like a voluntary Mao-like "cultural revolution," we have suppressed our own culture. Christmas is now "Winter Break." Halloween is called "Harvest Day" by some elemantry schools now, and we officlaly recnogize foreign holidays in many cities like Cinco de Mayo and St. Patrick’s day, promoting them as "ethnic" holidays. Cooking is now considered old fashioned, in favor of quick, fattening dinners. And so on…Whose fault is that, Mod? We are all to blame for this political correctness that has taken away the cultural soul of a society, and without culture, a society descends into moral anarchy. In the aftermath, we have this rise of religious extremism as anti-PC backlash, and then we get the other unwelcome extreme with people like Pat Robertson. Whatever happened to traditional but moderate American culture?

And why, Russ, is self-criticism unacceptable in America? Why do many Americans always respond with a nasty attitude towards self-critique? How are problems and shortcomings supposed to be addressed if we deny their existence? As I said, we think we’re the perfect society, but far from it, we’re not. I have lived in two Western European countries, Greece and France, and unlike the United States they are not consumed with criticizing the world and putting themselves on pedestals (no, it’s not France’s national passtime to criticize US, contrary to American urban myth, the French are actually highly self-critical, and please don’t claim otherwise, becuase I have actually lived there). Unlike the US, self-critique is very common in both of these countries. The US, however, is wrapped in its outdated national folklore: that nothig can ever go wrong in America, and when there is a shortcoming, it’s "the best possible way" and cannot be improved. Greece and France on the other hand despite having emerged from being war-torn rural societies in the 1950s to become high-living-standard immigrant-attracting countries by 2005, are still constantly self-critical and always looking for ways to improve. Why can’t the United States criticize itself, with patriotic pride? Why must self-criticism be branded as "unpatriotic?" Why can’t you admit, Russ, that creating a better society starts with criticism, and not by denying that massive problems and shortcomings exist? Both die-hard right-wing nut jobs like yourselves and many bleeding-heart liberals, are always quick to point out that in this country we enjoy considerable freedoms….but do you think that these freedoms were handed to the people so easily, Russ and Mod? Are you completely clueless on American history? None of these freedoms would have existed if there was no self-criticism of American society and the American power structure. None of these freedoms would have existed if there was no srtuggle. No government, or politician, or upperclassman handed these freedoms to the people. The people had to struggle, sometimes through political means, and soemtimes through protests sometimes violent in order to get the freeodms they enjoy today. If Americans never criticized their system, women still wouldn’t be able to vote, children would be working, African-Americans would still live in segragation, maybe even still be slaves, there wouldn’t be such thing as a weekend (you’d be working every day for 12 hours each day, and it looks like we’re headed in that direction again)…the list is endless. The labor movement, responsible for the weekend, started as a workers’ protest, brutaly/violently suppressed by authorities in Chicago in the 1880s. My God, I’m amazed at people like you who gleefully sit back, accept everything you’re told and don’t think for yourselves. You just absorb what you’re told and diligently comply. "I support the president," says the quintessential dumb-ass Oklahoma housewife who has no FUCKING clue about the dictatorships that her government has installed and supported throughout the world, in her name, and how the current global hatred of the United States started in the first place. If you’re comfortable with the world hating us, Mod and Russ, than continue doing what you’re doing. You and the corrupt political/industrial structure you support are definitely effective in provoking hatred and violence towards innocent American civilians. You are so fucking brainwahsed, you’ve been like this during your entire time here at Eurotrip, and the fact the millions of people like you exist and vote in the world’s only superpower at the moment, is truly a disaster to America.

If you TRULY supported the troops, Russ, wouldn’t you oppose[/i] the war?


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Wow, fucking wow.

That was probably the most sensible thing that has ever been posted here. (I know you like those tags )

Piggybacking on that fine post, I think a large problem is the seige menatlity when people think that people are picking on America because it is so great.

There is no doubt in my mind that Canada is a much better country for numerous and to this thread, irrelevant reasons, but when we do fuck up (which suprisingly doesn’t happen often or involve many foreigners)we certainly take each other to task and try to end it, rather then bend over and take it up the arse.

Aboriginals excepted.

Um.. what’s my point… uh, go read ltb’s post a few more times everybody. It was just joy to read. Thank you.

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quote:
There is no doubt in my mind that Canada is a much better country for numerous and to this thread, irrelevant reasons,

Surprise! A Canadian thinks his Canada is a better nation. But let an American say the same about about his nation and he’s accused of being brainswashed, fascist, bigotted, ignorant of the world, etc etc.

quote:
but when we do fuck up (which suprisingly doesn’t happen often or involve many foreigners)we certainly take each other to task and try to end it, rather then bend over and take it up the arse.

That’s rather vague, could you please provide some specific examples?

Rebuttal to Beach to come shortly.

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The Mayor of New Orleans collects a salary – last I checked… This guy is a classic example of American Politics, and Business Executive’s policies for the last 50 yrs… &quotASS THE BUCK"!!! Nobody in political positions EVER accepts responsibility for ANYTHING these days! The Mayor of N.O. knew four things well before Katrina hit land:

A. The storm was very dangerous, and heading for N.O.

B. The Federal Gov’t could not really be counted on to react in a timely manner for most things…

C. He had 100,000 to 125,000 very poor minorities, without cash or means of travel to leave the city.

D. He had 2,000 school busses, sitting in parking lots, likely with fuel already in them, and did nothing!

Mayor dingleberry and all the N.O. cops and citizens are crying, bitchin, and listening to the morons on FOX & CNN do the same – all day long!

Fact is, they should have had their own plan for this, and got out of harm’s way…. If he would have used the school busses to get the women, children, and elderly out – at the very least, things would not be so bad. Also, the busses AND people would have been spared for future use!
Duuuuhh!

I am leaving from EWR with $4000 for 9 days

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