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63 replies
Immigrants needed for dirty work?
Russ
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This is always a main point in arguments for open borders – you know, the whole "Day without a Mexican" thing.

So I was actually a little concerned that when I got to Missouri and Arkansas this summer – where the Hispanic population is really low – that I’d be sleeping on dirty sheets and that the Wendy’s joints would be understaffed.

But I got nothing but good service everywhere I went. It seems that there actually are a lot of young and old, white and black American citizens who want service jobs like these and who can do them well.

This justification for unlimited immigration is just phony. What country has failed to feed itself because there weren’t any Mexicans for the harvest? What country’s citizens leave their cars in the driveway because there is no one to change the oil or no one to mount new tires?

I think there must be a whole lot of underemployed youth and welfare bums and people who don’t show up on the welfare radar BECAUSE immigrants are often taking these low-end jobs (perhaps at sub-minimum wages??)

My daughter’s been job hunting – she’s 16 – but can’t turn up much. She’s been told she’s too young. No one wants to hire minors anymore. I suspect that’s because there are plenty of illegal adults around, undercutting her chances at that first job. All I know is there’s nothing but Spanish being spoken in kitchen area of the local Wendy’s.

Time for reforms.

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It isn’t so much as immigrants as it is poor people who are needed to do those jobs.

And naturally, less desirable places to live will have less people wanting to go there, and poorer places will have different demographics as well.

quote:I think there must be a whole lot of underemployed youth and welfare bums and people who don’t show up on the welfare radar BECAUSE immigrants are often taking these low-end jobs (perhaps at sub-minimum wages??)

If they are getting paid at such low rates, that isn’t the immigrants fault, take it out on the corporations.

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quote:
This is always a main point in arguments for open borders – you know, the whole "Day without a Mexican" thing.

So I was actually a little concerned that when I got to Missouri and Arkansas this summer – where the Hispanic population is really low – that I’d be sleeping on dirty sheets and that the Wendy’s joints would be understaffed.

But I got nothing but good service everywhere I went. It seems that there actually are a lot of young and old, white and black American citizens who want service jobs like these and who can do them well.

This justification for unlimited immigration is just phony. What country has failed to feed itself because there weren’t any Mexicans for the harvest? What country’s citizens leave their cars in the driveway because there is no one to change the oil or no one to mount new tires?

I think there must be a whole lot of underemployed youth and welfare bums and people who don’t show up on the welfare radar BECAUSE immigrants are often taking these low-end jobs (perhaps at sub-minimum wages??)

My daughter’s been job hunting – she’s 16 – but can’t turn up much. She’s been told she’s too young. No one wants to hire minors anymore. I suspect that’s because there are plenty of illegal adults around, undercutting her chances at that first job. All I know is there’s nothing but Spanish being spoken in kitchen area of the local Wendy’s.

Time for reforms.

When I was a teenager, I could not find a job in this state. When I moved to Nashville at age 16, I had no problem getting a job at all. My first job was at Kroger supermarket as a bagboy. I bagged groceries, loaded them in people’s car, everyone gave me 1 or 2 bucks tip. I felt like I was raking in the dough. The most money I’d ever made prior was $20 bucks my dad would give me whenever he occasionally felt like it. There’s no feeling in the world like getting your first job and not needing your dad to give you money. But back to your point, yes, I do think impoverished, unskilled immigration will take flood the unskilled labor market with competition, which means in areas where you see alot of this teens and working class Americans are going to see their chances of finding a job plummet.

We also hear the crap all the time about how illegals are picking crops in central California and nobody else will do it. But who’s working farms in Georgia and Vermont? Illegals all doing that too? I listened to a great program on a radio show about this issue in Austrailia. It sounds like they depend on more mechanized agriculture due to a shortage of people to do that labor. If we cut the spigot of illegal aliens off, technology will compensate for it and then we don’t have the expensive social costs of importing mass poverty into the US.

Russ, what do you think about Bush’s compliance with the illegal alien status quo?

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Ok, mexican butting in…

When I went to the States, I couldn’t get a job at first because I didn’t have my social security number. Took me 4 months to get it and 2 weeks to find a job. Of course I’m not your usual illegal brown skinned mexican, but I got my job because I deserved it, regardless of being a poor jobless mexican or an american citizen.

I came back to Mexico, worked for a while for a biologyst who’s my friend, got paid next to cero, and then worked in Queretaro at the family pawn shop, which was a nightmare. I quit my job there and moved back to Mexico City with no money, debts (not big ones but debts) and while being here I lost my apartment. Homeless, jobless, pennyless, etc.

Some people say an unemployed person should dedicate 8 hours a day looking for a job, your usual work hours. I applied only for 1 job, and I said "this is the one job, there’s no other choice, this is it", a job as an entertainment executive, a job I am completely and utterly underqualified for. I never had a job like this, not even similar and I was competing with people that had master’s degree, 20 years of experience in the field, etc. I got the job.

With this job I learnt one thing. There’s things that a resume don’t say, like who’s lazy, who’s got an attitude problem, who doesn’t like to work, etc. There’s things that I don’t have, like experience, but I can learn them, discipline is not something you learn at school.

I also learnt people don’t find jobs because some people don’t think they deserve them, or they are brainwashed in that "screw the government, there’s no jobs" thing. There’s also an looser attitude problem and there’s people that go hunting for jobs praying they don’t find one so they can play the victim another while.

Never ever have I seen a newspaper that has no job openings. Maybe the job is far away from home, maybe the payment is not what one expects, maybe some people are not fit for some jobs. But that "there’s no jobs out there" is crap, there are jobs out there, just not the kind of job one wants but there are jobs nevertheless.

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quote:If they are getting paid at such low rates, that isn’t the immigrants fault, take it out on the corporations.

I didn’t blame only the immigrants. You may not like corporations. They are sometimes to blame – but it’s often the mom-and-pop employers who do the same. And no matter what an employer is willing to do to cut costs, the immigrant broke the law by sneaking into the country and working without permission. If you snuck into France and illegally took a job from a citizen there, wouldn’t you expect the citizenry to be upset at you? Of course, the government, ACLU, and the cheapo taxpayer, all of whom either don’t do their job or won’t support border enforcement or treat trespassers like full-fledged citizens bear some responsibility too.

quote:We also hear the crap all the time about how illegals are picking crops in central California and nobody else will do it. But who’s working farms in Georgia and Vermont?

Yes. And who did all that work in the CA, AZ, NV, etc. before we decided to let the border become a thoroughfare for the destitute from Mexico and Central America? Our grandparents and our parents. And college students. I’m old enough to remember college classmates who would take summer jobs in the canneries and orchards north of Sacramento. No one does that today. Now, they may getlucky and find an internship, but many just go tubing in the summer and get bigger college loans that they either pay off after 25 years or never pay off (yep, that costs us all.) I think it’s good to do some grunt work if you ever hope to build character or to empathize with the less fortunate who must do such work all their lives.

quote:Russ, what do you think about Bush’s compliance with the illegal alien status quo?

You mean his plan to have them come forward, fine them, and let them stay, then toss the ones who don’t comply when they’re discovered? Sounds reasonable. You can’t toss them ALL out, and it wouldn’t be helpful to do so. But it’s going to be a whole lot of work if he’s got more and more coming over and doesn’t do something impressive to stem the illegal flow at the border. That is his job. So far, I’m not seeing much commitment on his part to doing his job.

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quote:
You mean his plan to have them come forward, fine them, and let them stay, then toss the ones who don’t comply when they’re discovered? Sounds reasonable. You can’t toss them ALL out, and it wouldn’t be helpful to do so. But it’s going to be a whole lot of work if he’s got more and more coming over and doesn’t do something impressive to stem the illegal flow at the border. That is his job. So far, I’m not seeing much commitment on his part to doing his job.

That’s not his problem, the issue will no be at it’s peak during his term. Let someone else handle it when the time comes (not that I agree, I speculate that’s his idea).

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quote:
Some people say an unemployed person should dedicate 8 hours a day looking for a job, your usual work hours. I applied only for 1 job, and I said "this is the one job, there’s no other choice, this is it", a job as an entertainment executive, a job I am completely and utterly underqualified for. I never had a job like this, not even similar and I was competing with people that had master’s degree, 20 years of experience in the field, etc. I got the job.

Congrats on the nice-sounding job, Jester. What do you think cliched it for you?

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I agree that many privileged, lazy Americans are in part to blame for just turning a blind eye to cheap labor as they can’t seem to fathom ever doing such manual labor themselves.

I understand, to some degree, the wish of many illegal migrants to come to the US and make better lives for themselves…But if we give "amnesty" to those illegals who make themselves known, it only makes the problem worse by sending the message back to Latin America that their illegal migration is okay—instead of getting deported, they were forgiven and handed a get-out-of-jail-free card. And in addition, isn’t the root of their problems that too many of them are having too many children in poor countries where demand far exceeds supply, where corrupt governments give new meaning to the phrase "trickle down economics" and where the powerful Catholic church turns a blind eye?

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quote:
And in addition, isn’t the root of their problems that too many of them are having too many children in poor countries where demand far exceeds supply, where corrupt governments give new meaning to the phrase "trickle down economics" and where the powerful Catholic church turns a blind eye?

Bullseye. It’s no coincidence that the countries with the highest standard living have small family sizes. And the poorer the country the larger the average family size.

Guess who the most affluent group per capita is in America? Gay men. It’s not hard to guess why.

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Russ,

First, everyone, excuse me as I don’t have enough time to read the entire thread, I just want to add a couple cents to this discussion.

Russ, immigration is one area where I actually tend to be relatively conservative. And you definitely bring up good points. I just want to expose what a terribly complicated subject immigration is, how several political and private entities take advantage of it for personal gain, and how oversimplified this is by everyday people.

Every nation has the right to regulate immgration and even to shut the doors. But in all fairness, immigrants from Mexico take jobs that natives do not want. (And you should refrain from using the term "Hispanic," which could mean anything. It could be a Mexican economic immigrant; a Salvdoran, Guatemalan, or Cuban refugee; a Chilean businessman; an American citizen from the US territory of Puerto Rico; or a 6th-generation American either tracing his ancestry to people who settled in New Mexico or Louisiana from Spain centuries ago, or to Mexicans who’ve lived in Texas for several generations since the time Texas was still a part of Mexico. A Hispanic person could be white, black, mestizo, mulato, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, etc, etc.)

Mexicans, in all fairness, take jobs natives do not want. now the question is this: if there were no illegal immigrants, would these jobs offer a higher pay…a liveable wage for a native? Illegal immigrants (and I mean illegal immigrants, not Mexican immigrants with greencards who have normal-paying jobs) are willing to take jobs that do not pay a liveable wage…do you have any idea what conditions they live in?? Which American (or legal Mexican resident) would take these jobs?

There are two solutions: either agree with President Vincente Fox’s plan to offer legal working status to ilegal immigrants (only from Mexico, not other countries), or seriously crack down on employment of illegal immigrants. The former would push up the price of labor, the latter would push up the price of goods and services. CWould the average American citizen let alone the average American industrialist put up with that?? I would, but would you?


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quote:
quote:
And in addition, isn’t the root of their problems that too many of them are having too many children in poor countries where demand far exceeds supply, where corrupt governments give new meaning to the phrase "trickle down economics" and where the powerful Catholic church turns a blind eye?

Bullseye. It’s no coincidence that the countries with the highest standard living have small family sizes. And the poorer the country the larger the average family size.

Guess who the most affluent group per capita is in America? Gay men. It’s not hard to guess why.

Mod, your theory is flawed. You have been able to find a [very] loose corelation between family size and national poverty, but it’s not a universal norm. Russia, a formerly rich country (yes, even under "inefficient" communism, they had achieved a relatively high standard of living by 1990…oh the Pandora’s Box I’m opening up here) had its birth rate and family size plummet after the rapid economic decline of the first half of the 1990s (and a continuous period of poverty for a very large portion of the population ever since, despite solid economic growth in the recent decade).

I’m inclided to say it may actually have more to do with the difference between industrialized and developing countries, rather than rich vs. poor, but I wouldn’t strictly stick to this either. It’s also a cultural or political thing, pending the situation in each individual country. China, despite having a large affluent middle-class encompasing probably the whole of the USA, is still one of the poorest countries in the world, in terms of per capita income (and 70% of the population still living rural areas, thus making China a developing country) has a low birth rate. Whether it’s the one-child policy (observed in certain areas more strictly than in others) or not, the birth rate has now plummeted. The population figure will continue to grow for the next 15 years or so, because of an aging population (high life expectancies), but it will peak, and eventually fall…China is following the same pattern as many rich countries in Europe and the Pacific Rim: Japan, Italy, Germany, Spain, to name a few. If I’m not mistaken, there are a handful of rich countries with solid birth rates: Ireland, and I think South Korea too. And I think the birth rate in Mexico is starting to decline. I think most anthropoligists relate birth rates to child mortality. When child mortality in a given country falls (because of advances in health care and sanitation, and more abundance in food), birth rates also fall within a generation or two (or three). Mexico may be entering that phase now.


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quote:
I agree that many privileged, lazy Americans are in part to blame for just turning a blind eye to cheap labor as they can’t seem to fathom ever doing such manual labor themselves.

I understand, to some degree, the wish of many illegal migrants to come to the US and make better lives for themselves…But if we give "amnesty" to those illegals who make themselves known, it only makes the problem worse by sending the message back to Latin America that their illegal migration is okay—instead of getting deported, they were forgiven and handed a get-out-of-jail-free card. And in addition, isn’t the root of their problems that too many of them are having too many children in poor countries where demand far exceeds supply, where corrupt governments give new meaning to the phrase "trickle down economics" and where the powerful Catholic church turns a blind eye?

Again, be careful with the term "Latin America." Only a handful of countries from Latin America are major immigrant senders to the USA, with Mexico holding the dubious distinction of sending the vast majority of immigrants into the USA, and a very large number of them. Immigants from Argentina, Chile, and Brazil are virtually unheard of; in fact, Argentina and Brazil are net immigrant receiving countries, especially Argentina which has large recent immigrant communities from Paraguay, Bolivia, and from other continents too. And, most Americans who know little about South America wouldn’t imagine that there’s a major culture clash between Argentines, and Bolivian or Paraguayan immigrants. Bolivians and Paragyans are either mestizo, or pure Quechua-speaking Amerindians. Argentines are overwhelmingly direct descendants of Europeans (mostly from Spain, Italy, and Germany). Paraguay and Bolivia are rural. Argentina is heavily urbanized and industrialized. It’s like comparing Jamaica to the USA…language and religion (Christianity) is the only thing they have in common.

Furthermore, some counutries from central America and the Carribean are senders of refugees, not necessarily econmic migrants. Cubans are one prime example, although it’s unclear how many are economic migrants and how many seek poliitcal asylum. While it’s definitely a mixture of both, many American conservatives are inclined to say that they’re all political refugees, which is not the case, nor do we know the ratio of Cuban political refugees vs. Cuban economic migrants. Then there’s the civil war in Guatemala which raged for about 15-20 years, and sent many Guatemalan refugees into Mexico and the USA. The dictatorship of El Salvador (supported by the Reagan administration) also sent many political refugees to ironically the US. We kind of have to acknowledge our role here.

Again, immigration is an incredibly complicated issue, with several layers that are rarely examined by the passive observer.

One area where I guess I am a tad "conservative" is Americans’ encouragement of the celebration of foreign countries. Embracing diversity is one thing, but encouraging foreign national holidays (like Cinco de Mayo) is something else entirely. I don’t mean Cinco de Mayo days at the bar…I’m talking about official political enouragement by mayors, etc. On the surface, it’s defined as an "ethnic holiday" ("ethnic" being another misused term), but it’s actually a commemorative national holiday of a foreign country. I think any kind of national parade in New York or Chicago, be it Mexican, or German, or Italian, makes no more sense than a Fourth-of-July parade in the middle of Mexico City. As someone who is not descended from the Puritans myself, I find these so-called "ethnic" celebrations a bit patronizing to the nationality involved, as well as unfair to the native culture (American).


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If y’all paid $10,000.00 and survived the Pacific trip in which over 100 perished on the 10-man rowboat AND found a job working at McDonald’s, y’all would be considered millionaires in yall’s country of origin!!!!!!! No need for a scroller, y’all get the gist!!!!!

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quote:(And you should refrain from using the term "Hispanic," which could mean anything. It could be a Mexican economic immigrant; a Salvdoran, Guatemalan, or Cuban refugee; a Chilean businessman; an American citizen from the US territory of Puerto Rico; or a 6th-generation American either tracing his ancestry to people who settled in New Mexico or Louisiana from Spain centuries ago, or to Mexicans who’ve lived in Texas for several generations since the time Texas was still a part of Mexico. A Hispanic person could be white, black, mestizo, mulato, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, etc, etc.)

Hispanic is/has been a word that can mean all those things. That’s just what I meant. I mean, "white" can mean all kinds of things too. Both words serve as big categories. And…?? There aren’t a lot of Hispanics in that part of the country. So, what word do you want me to use? My point was just that if there aren’t a lot of Hispanics, then there aren’t a lot of illegal Hispanics working service jobs.

quote:Mexicans, in all fairness, take jobs natives do not want.

This is such a meaningless cliché. Most people don’t WANT to work. But if they have to, as most do, most would PREFER to do something more glamourous than than the work commonly performed by immigrants. But when they can’t get jobs doing interior design or event planning, they’ll pack peaches or mop floors to make a living IF THOSE JOBS ARE AVAILABLE. Citizens – whether they’re retired or first timers or mentally retarded or drop-outs – ought to have a shot at low end jobs first. Illegal mmigrants ARE taking those jobs that natives might not want but often NEED.

quote:now the question is this: if there were no illegal immigrants, would these jobs offer a higher pay…a liveable wage for a native?

Of course they’d offer more pay. Lots of illegals make subminimum wages. They’re slaves by our standards. Citizens have been to school and know their rights and can speak the language and have others who will help protect them from greedy, abusive employers.
And if it’s even a little bit true what you say – that employers will have a hard time filling positions with citizens – then wages will obviously go up. Remember that supply-demand principle? It almost seems like you are saying we should keep illegals here and abuse them so that employers can have an easy time of it and so that none of us native-born types will ever have to break a sweat.

quote:Illegal immigrants (and I mean illegal immigrants, not Mexican immigrants with greencards who have normal-paying jobs) are willing to take jobs that do not pay a liveable wage…do you have any idea what conditions they live in?? Which American (or legal Mexican resident) would take these jobs?

A lot of immigrants are dragging all their family members with them or slipping across and having babies over here, and they’re then trying to support many on an income of one – hence the conditions you speak of. Young (citizen) kids or the mentally disabled or the retired on Social Security who might be competing with illegals for a job changing tires or dropping french fries will not be living in squalor because they usually have some kind of infrastructure behind them and need the supplemental income for a better life. They’re living at home or getting a check but it’s not enough for a normal life. The scheme of employing illegal immigrants turns them into destitutes, as you say, while denying legal citizens an opportunity to better themselves a bit. It’s really quite insane.

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When the Herr retires, he wants to become a Wal-Mart greeter!!!!!

Know how many fuck’n hot babes shop at Wal-Mart?????? Talk about a Meet-Market!!!!!!!

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quote:
Mexicans, in all fairness, take jobs natives do not want.

Now I don’t agree with this. I think they don’t want the jobs at the wages the illegals are doing them for. For example, illegals are working in meat packing and chicken slaughterhouses. Sure, this isn’t the most desirable job, but they used to offer a decent wage for someone without high skills. But when you important wage slaves into the US and flood the market with cheap labor, the wages drop, and then people claim that "no American wants to take these jobs anymore". The same story can be said of construction, painters, movers, drywallers, gardeners, nannies, maids, etc. Now I happen to be a skilled worker myself, so this doesn’t effect me in a direct way, but I feel for the Americans struggling at the bottom while the gap between rich and poor grows.

quote: now the question is this: if there were no illegal immigrants, would these jobs offer a higher pay…a liveable wage for a native?

Yes, they once did.

quote:
There are two solutions: either agree with President Vincente Fox’s plan to offer legal working status to ilegal immigrants (only from Mexico, not other countries),

Vicente Fox’s only interest is making sure the spigot of dollars comes flowing back into Mexico’s economy. Billions a year are sent back into Mexico. It’s a greater source of revenue for Mexico than oil. So he’s scared to death that we will interrupt the process.

quote:
or seriously crack down on employment of illegal immigrants. The former would push up the price of labor, the latter would push up the price of goods and services. CWould the average American citizen let alone the average American industrialist put up with that?? I would, but would you?

I would. Because you know what, we’re paying for it either directly or indirectly. Sure, we save some money on avocados and lettuce, but we also have public hospitals in California shutting down because they cannot afford to stay open because they’re giving so many births to illegal alien mothers on the taxpayer’s expense. Now all these kids must be educated at $10,000 a pop per year. And let’s not even talk about all the cultural implications such as replacing english with spanish.

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This question is easily understood through some basic readings on the history of immigration (human or not).

Most of your answers are laden with heavy biases against a lot of what reality has brought to your front door. That’s fine but don’t act like America has grown in a vacuum and then these Mexicans started showing up.

Essentially, the issue is one of survival. If one can make the long trek to America, illegally make their way across the border, and land in central California where they can pick cherries and artichokes at half the minimum wage (or whatever they earn)—they are doing it for a reason. That is…this is a very dangerous, usually expensive for them, and unstable option to follow.

One last thing.

If you think Latinos are not making their way across the country in droves, you’re not paying attention. There are HUGE growths of latino populations in places like Colorado now and even companies like Tyson have been caught trucking illegals to their plants in Tennessee. Point being, just because you didn’t see any in whitebread Ozark-land doesn’t mean they are not close by. As for the southeast, why, the african-americans are the latinos there. That much is apparent from day one, if you’ve ever been.

And the corporations…well, we’re ALL the latinos for them. The only thing that keeps some of our wages from not dropping is politics and, essentially, power.

Even still, a lot of wages are frozen and not keeping up with inflation. That isn’t universal of course.

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I blame corporate greed and modern economics for the woes of low paid work.

Basically I really don’t give a toss whether I’m emptying garbage cans or working as an Engineer but the bottom line is greedy employers are cutting wages (their costs) and making such manual jobs undesirable to natives. Are these savings being passed onto the end customer? No way… it’s profit straight into theri walllet house prices are rising, cost of living is crazy (here in Europe anyway) the gap bewtween rich and poor is getting bigger each year, middle class America is disappearing faster than the polar ice caps. is this a good thing? Nup.. people like Modulis who maybe get lucky and shoot up the ladder think it is but either way I think it’s wrong….

We’re fast becoming a master-slave society… I’m not greedy but neither do I want to bust my ass for peanuts… Modulis, those faggots you talk about all drive Porsches and Mercs, for what? Window dressing a fucking fetish boutique or trimming someones show Poodle… we need a fucking reality check…. the Poodle won’t fucking die not getting a $90 hair cut every month but paying a Mexican $50 a week to empty garbage cans is a must but we take it for granted it gets done, and yet Russ and Co still knock the groups who do this work.

A lot of people knocking these manual jobs, somebody has got to do it and you certainly wouldn’t do it for a crummy wage.

Services must bear realation to the work done and materials used, paying faggots 100 grand to deck your home out like an Egyptian Palace is ludicrous, paying the Mexican binman $100 a month is likewise and therein lies the problem.

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quote:This question is easily understood through some basic readings on the history of immigration (human or not).

Most of your answers are laden with heavy biases against a lot of what reality has brought to your front door. That’s fine but don’t act like America has grown in a vacuum and then these Mexicans started showing up.

Do you always have to be such an elitist? (Oh – the US is a nation of immigrants? really?)

quote:If you think Latinos are not making their way across the country in droves, you’re not paying attention. There are HUGE growths of latino populations in places like Colorado now and even companies like Tyson have been caught trucking illegals to their plants in Tennessee. Point being, just because you didn’t see any in whitebread Ozark-land doesn’t mean they are not close by. As for the southeast, why, the african-americans are the latinos there. That much is apparent from day one, if you’ve ever been.

Do you always have to be such an elitist?

Actually, in addition to my always-myopic travel observations, I’ve referred to census materials to determine the racial make-up of whitebread Ozark-land. You can do the same if you like. Tyson attracts Hispanics in northern Arkansas towns like Berryville, where they operate, as well. (It may be worth noting that Tyson trucks in workers not necessarily because workers can’t be had, but because they don’t want to pay the existing population a fair wage – they have to compete with other employers in their industry who have lots of cheap illegals at their fingertips, perhaps.) I don’t recall ever saying that illegals don’t travel to distant places of employment. I think I only said that they aren’t many now in Arkansas when compared with places in the southwest.

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quote:the gap bewtween rich and poor is getting bigger each year, middle class America is disappearing faster than the polar ice caps. is this a good thing?

This gap is what happens when you invite millions of destitutes into the country and take advantage of their situation for generations and make the Joe-average American too expensive to employ.

quote:Russ and Co still knock the groups who do this work.

Apparently you can’t read. I’ve knocked everyone else for the problem. I really can’t even knock them for breaking the law on their way into the country. We put out the welcome mat, offer them refreshments along the way, then take care of them when they’re here. If I were a destitute Mexican – like most are – I’d think that America wanted me and would be tempted to cross as well. (A recent poll shows that something like 40% of Mexico would move here if they could, by the way.)

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These corporations are smart and greedy and if they couldn’t entice the labour to come to them, like the Tyler example, they would just move it overseas where they can pay less and less.

That whole "our workers would get more/immigrants taking our jobs" is bullshit its these coportations giving them away.

And they manage to wind up the people (like Russ)so they take their aggression out on the other pawns (immigrants)in the game while the controllers get richer and richer and are not taken to task by people like the former group (the Russes).

Wake up already.

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quote:
These corporations are smart and greedy and if they couldn’t entice the labour to come to them, like the Tyler example, they would just move it overseas where they can pay less and less.

That whole "our workers would get more/immigrants taking our jobs" is bullshit its these coportations giving them away.

And they manage to wind up the people (like Russ)so they take their aggression out on the other pawns (immigrants)in the game while the controllers get richer and richer and are not taken to task by people like the former group (the Russes).

Wake up already.

Sickboy, you once posted a link on some dude that was pretty pissed of about all this "illegals are stealing our jobs" thing, do you happen to have it or even remember it?

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I was going for elitist in a way in this thread.

That is, to be over the top as to where the questions to these answers lie. I do think that it boils down to a lot of people not wanting America to be what it is anymore. They want to change it and one of the scapegoats for this is the latino population, legal or not. It used to be the blacks but they’re not as PC to be the scapegoat for the way we let ourselves get it up the ass anymore. Some places in the south are still cool with it though. Then there are the nouveau-riche who look down upon poor white trash and lastly there is the old money who has most of the power in their spheres of influence…democrat and republican alike.

I’m not advocating Communism here but it is very astonishing to me that your average American is so complacent about a lot of fucked up stuff. Yeah sure, we have it better than 100% of the world but this illusion of prosperity keeps us from looking at the issues head-on. So we create little bogeymen like Latino workers who live in relative squalor to most of us and work jobs that pay low to maintain the illusion most Americans have at the supermarket.

My favorite illusion right now is how oil prices are going high and no one mutters much of a word. For some reason, we think that this ‘war on terror’ tribulation is something we ALL have to go through. Of course, oil companies are making record profits because of their monopoly and laughing all the way to the bank every time oil prices have to go up again because of some event…

Then there’s the illusion that Iraq isn’t driving us into the ground fiscally.

Come to think of it, there are a lot of illusions/delusions around right now. I’m just surprised so many people let themselves get seduced by some of the outlandish ‘reasons’ for these issues.

Like Latinos taking over our culture.

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I know three Mexicans and two of them are bone idle.

Jester, do you sleep 19 hours a day ??

I get the impression that Rip Van Winkle was a Mexican Illegal in the USA and not American.

Pity there’s no sleeping events in the Olympic as Mexico would clean up on the Medals table, send 100,000 in their synchronized snoozing team.

Is there such a thing as a job center in Mexico? The impression these guys give me is all Mexicans are work shy!

Oh well, I suppose it’s not a bad thing, the key to a longer life perhaps!

- How many Mexicans does it take to change a light bulb?

- None, the Mexicans prefer the lights out (zzzzzzzzzzzz!)

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I’m afraid this is just a bibliography for those who are interested but it’s a good one…

http://geography.uor…

Another good look, just FYI stuff, is here:

http://www.census.go…

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quote:
I was going for elitist in a way in this thread.

That is, to be over the top as to where the questions to these answers lie. I do think that it boils down to a lot of people not wanting America to be what it is anymore. They want to change it and one of the scapegoats for this is the latino population, legal or not. It used to be the blacks but they’re not as PC to be the scapegoat for the way we let ourselves get it up the ass anymore. Some places in the south are still cool with it though. Then there are the nouveau-riche who look down upon poor white trash and lastly there is the old money who has most of the power in their spheres of influence…democrat and republican alike.

I’m not advocating Communism here but it is very astonishing to me that your average American is so complacent about a lot of fucked up stuff. Yeah sure, we have it better than 100% of the world but this illusion of prosperity keeps us from looking at the issues head-on. So we create little bogeymen like Latino workers who live in relative squalor to most of us and work jobs that pay low to maintain the illusion most Americans have at the supermarket.

My favorite illusion right now is how oil prices are going high and no one mutters much of a word. For some reason, we think that this ‘war on terror’ tribulation is something we ALL have to go through. Of course, oil companies are making record profits because of their monopoly and laughing all the way to the bank every time oil prices have to go up again because of some event…

Then there’s the illusion that Iraq isn’t driving us into the ground fiscally.

Come to think of it, there are a lot of illusions/delusions around right now. I’m just surprised so many people let themselves get seduced by some of the outlandish ‘reasons’ for these issues.

Like Latinos taking over our culture.

One class post Vera, the sentiments of which I’d like to copy over to the Chavez thread. Modulis lives in cloud cuckoo land and need to read what you’ve written

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quote:
I was going for elitist in a way in this thread.

That is, to be over the top as to where the questions to these answers lie. I do think that it boils down to a lot of people not wanting America to be what it is anymore. They want to change it and one of the scapegoats for this is the latino population, legal or not. It used to be the blacks but they’re not as PC to be the scapegoat for the way we let ourselves get it up the ass anymore. Some places in the south are still cool with it though. Then there are the nouveau-riche who look down upon poor white trash and lastly there is the old money who has most of the power in their spheres of influence…democrat and republican alike.

I’m not advocating Communism here but it is very astonishing to me that your average American is so complacent about a lot of fucked up stuff. Yeah sure, we have it better than 100% of the world but this illusion of prosperity keeps us from looking at the issues head-on. So we create little bogeymen like Latino workers who live in relative squalor to most of us and work jobs that pay low to maintain the illusion most Americans have at the supermarket.

My favorite illusion right now is how oil prices are going high and no one mutters much of a word. For some reason, we think that this ‘war on terror’ tribulation is something we ALL have to go through. Of course, oil companies are making record profits because of their monopoly and laughing all the way to the bank every time oil prices have to go up again because of some event…

Then there’s the illusion that Iraq isn’t driving us into the ground fiscally.

Come to think of it, there are a lot of illusions/delusions around right now. I’m just surprised so many people let themselves get seduced by some of the outlandish ‘reasons’ for these issues.

Like Latinos taking over our culture.

I don’t know what you part of the country you live in Vera, but where Russ and I live, this is a MAJOR local issue, okay? The mass poverty we are illegally importing into the country mostly end up in California, not in the midwest or northeast. We don’t get reimbursed by the federal government for the cost that are placed on local schools and county hospitals, or the fact that our car insurance rates are higher in order to cover for all the illegals driving with no license and insurance. We also bear the brunt of notorious gangs like MS-13 and the 18th street gang that are comprised mainly of illegal aliens. And to top it off, there’s a virtually endless supply of people on the poverty chain to keep coming.

There’s not one thing about illegal immigration that I think is good for this country, thus I am opposed to it.

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Modulis, go read what I wrote again.

If you think illegal aliens are a bigger problem than unaccountable big business, you clearly are fighting the wrong fight… the question is why?

You aren’t even supposed to download mp3s in your state anymore!

Should we blame….. the Mexicans?

Or the big business interests in bed with the politicans who are removing your rights (much to the amusement of us Canadians) one after the other but telling you its for your own saftey and well being?

Illegal immigration is a smoke screen to keep people like you guys from wising up to who is really fucking you over economically.

b>edit I think part of the problem is that amongst the short sighted, it is much easier to see a large Latin population ona daily basis, and then think of it as a threat than it is to take a hard look at what business and government is really up to.

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Of course Jester!

http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart

And an excerpt for the rest :

quote:Nobody wants to pay you for your half-assed work if someone else can do it better. That’s what America is all about. Our president may be a moron, but I’ll be damned if I’m going to let any more jackasses sully the reputation of hard working Americans who are willing to work just as hard as anyone else with or without competition. If you can’t cut it, then the people with money will pay it to someone else who can. Maybe if all you people bitching weren’t such lazy, pathetic, blood sucking leeches, you’d get off of your dead ass and work HARDER to do a better job. Get some balls people. If you’re too chicken shit and you can’t cut it, then maybe it’s you who doesn’t deserve to live in America. Not the immigrants.

The drawing and rest of the article are even funnier!

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quote:
Modulis, go read what I wrote again.

If you think illegal aliens are a bigger problem than unaccountable big business, you clearly are fighting the wrong fight… the question is why?

You aren’t even supposed to download mp3s in your state anymore!

Should we blame….. the Mexicans?

Or the big business interests in bed with the politicans who are removing your rights (much to the amusement of us Canadians) one after the other but telling you its for your own saftey and well being?

Illegal immigration is a smoke screen to keep people like you guys from wising up to who is really fucking you over economically

Jester, I have blamed the big business interests in past posts on the numerous other times this topic has come up. If you’ve noticed, I haven’t made any direct attack on the migrants themselves, except for the ones from the MS-13 gang who deserved to be lined up and shot as far as I concerned. Like Russ said, I don’t don’t blame poor people for trying to come here, anyone of us would probably be doing the same. But at the same time, we have to protect our borders and wage structure.

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quote:
I don’t know what you part of the country you live in Vera, but where Russ and I live, this is a MAJOR local issue, okay?

Ever hear of Salinas, Castroville, Watsonville, Gilroy, or Seaside California? That’s where I live…in the middle of California’s zebra coast where the median house price is $700,000 dollars and society is distributed in concentric circles of wealth—the further from the super-wealthy core (Pacific Grove, Monterey, and Carmel) the poorer you get.

It’s an interesting place really since such extreme wealth is surrounded by, in some cases, squalor. There was an article in the paper (Monterey Herald) the other day that was titled "Dust Bowl Living Conditions" only it wasn’t the infamous Dust Bowl they were covering. It was housing conditions for laborers in the region. Think concrete pad, scavenged lumber, and jerry-rigged electrical/water piping.

It’s also a place where local schools are taking a hit under NCLB because laborers will only attend school to get the paperwork that says they are 16 and able to work…then they never come back. So, entire schools suffer on the ratings scheme (they’re "underperforming&quotWink because socio-economic conditions for our little focus group of people in this thread are less than desirable and not exactly conducive to the elusive American Dream post-high school diploma.

quote:
The mass poverty we are illegally importing into the country mostly end up in California, not in the midwest or northeast. We don’t get reimbursed by the federal government for the cost that are placed on local schools and county hospitals, or the fact that our car insurance rates are higher in order to cover for all the illegals driving with no license and insurance.

California has something like the #3 Economy in the world. Are you that surprised that people would flock there to find work? I understand the earlier comments on farms in other parts of the country but Agriculture in California doesn’t compare too well given its dominance of the economy, land and water use, and the low-wage end of the labor pool.

So maybe Californians might want to work the hours that Latino farm laborers do if they had the opportunity but I doubt it because even with a job paying $50,000 a year you can’t buy a house. Point being, economically, working on a farm doesn’t cut it for most Americans and their expected (illusion-based) way of life.

quote:
We also bear the brunt of notorious gangs like MS-13 and the 18th street gang that are comprised mainly of illegal aliens. And to top it off, there’s a virtually endless supply of people on the poverty chain to keep coming.

What’s your answer for poverty? I mean, what alternatives to poverty do you think can be provided to curb gang membership and improve socio-economic conditions?

Is it a cement barrier along the border to keep the impoverished (via CAFTA/NAFTA, etc.) from getting in?

quote:
There’s not one thing about illegal immigration that I think is good for this country, thus I am opposed to it.

Sure, illegal immigration doesn’t have a nice ring to it…I agree. It’s also costly in a number of ways but opposition to it is somewhat akin to creationist farmers praying day-in, day-out that the latest bug spray they’ve used will have targeted the most recent evolutionary traits of the pests that damage their crops will work.

I mean, a lot of people are just trying to survive. Can you blame them? I don’t think you are but you seem to want to find an alternative for their survival. There are arguably ways to do that in places like Mexico that keep people at home (as if they all desperately want to take their life savings and coyote their way to America) but major economic policies that are designed to increase profits for a few, keep prices for Americans artificially low, and to drive competition out of the market are just the tip of the iceberg lettuce when it comes to this stuff.

The World Bank, IMF, and other global powermongers literally force governments to alter the way things are done in order to cover the interest payments on the loans that they are given to keep their socieities duct taped together. They know that American corn will drive thousands in Mexico out of work and increase poverty but they don’t care because their forced economic change is wrapped up in an ideology that only sees success when the US or some other major western power funds the changes for decades and ensures that some stable, usually autocratic, power is there to help things along.

South Korea is a brilliant example of such policies. People point to them as a success story and they are but they didn’t get to where they are without massive US funding and some pretty nasty leadership in the 80’s.

Anyway, my point is that Americans want to keep their illusory prices, etc. and to maintain some elusive prosperous way of life that is heavily subsidized by their massive debt load so they support things like NAFTA. However, when this socio-economic upkeep for average Americans and massive profit intake for non-average Americans has repercussions, we want to pretend like we had no role in it and find a way to eradicate the problem.

We don’t live in a vacuum and neither do immigrants to America.

quote:
Like Russ said, I don’t don’t blame poor people for trying to come here, anyone of us would probably be doing the same. But at the same time, we have to protect our borders and wage structure.

In other words, Evolution doesn’t exist and shouldn’t be taught in schools but we’ll keep praying each night that Monsanto’s newest pest control will be able to hone in on the way bugs are evolving right now.

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quote:
Ever hear of Salinas, Castroville, Watsonville, Gilroy, or Seaside California? That’s where I live…in the middle of California’s zebra coast where the median house price is $700,000 dollars and society is distributed in concentric circles of wealth—the further from the super-wealthy core (Pacific Grove, Monterey, and Carmel) the poorer you get.

I’m familiar with the area. I’ll actually be camping up that way around half moon bay for labor day weekend. Beautiful region. I’d thought you lived somewhere else for some reason.

quote:
So maybe Californians might want to work the hours that Latino farm laborers do if they had the opportunity but I doubt it because even with a job paying $50,000 a year you can’t buy a house. Point being, economically, working on a farm doesn’t cut it for most Americans and their expected (illusion-based) way of life.

Uh…I think most rural folk would be more than happy to make $50k a year. If you don’t have the expenses of living in a high priced metropolis, 50k a year would be pretty decent money.

quote:
What’s your answer for poverty? I mean, what alternatives to poverty do you think can be provided to curb gang membership and improve socio-economic conditions?

For one thing, the MS-13 gang comes from El Salvador, they can be deported from the US and end up right back up here a week later. As for solving the problem with the illegal alien gangs, either close the border or throw them in prison and melt the key.

quote:
Is it a cement barrier along the border to keep the impoverished (via CAFTA/NAFTA, etc.) from getting in?

I’m not a fan of CAFTA/NAFTA myself, but let’s be honest here, there was poverty south of the border and illegal immigration long before these global trade agreements. It’s not as if Clinton signed NAFTA into being and presto, we now have this new problem of illegal immigration. I don’t think there’s very much the US can do to bring Mexico up to a 1st world standard of living. Because the culture of a nation has as much to do with it’s prosperity(or lack thereof) as do global economic policies.

quote:
There’s not one thing about illegal immigration that I think is good for this country, thus I am opposed to it.

quote:
I mean, a lot of people are just trying to survive. Can you blame them? I don’t think you are but you seem to want to find an alternative for their survival. There are arguably ways to do that in places like Mexico that keep people at home (as if they all desperately want to take their life savings and coyote their way to America) but major economic policies that are designed to increase profits for a few, keep prices for Americans artificially low, and to drive competition out of the market are just the tip of the iceberg lettuce when it comes to this stuff.

Like I said, poverty in Mexico(and Latin America in general) long predates these global trade agreements you point to.

quote:
The World Bank, IMF, and other global powermongers literally force governments to alter the way things are done in order to cover the interest payments on the loans that they are given to keep their socieities duct taped together. They know that American corn will drive thousands in Mexico out of work and increase poverty but they don’t care because their forced economic change is wrapped up in an ideology that only sees success when the US or some other major western power funds the changes for decades and ensures that some stable, usually autocratic, power is there to help things along.

South Korea is a brilliant example of such policies. People point to them as a success story and they are but they didn’t get to where they are without massive US funding and some pretty nasty leadership in the 80’s.

A lot of funding has gone into Egypt as well but I wouldn’t call it a bastion of affluence.

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Wanted to throw out something else(sorry for hijacking your thread Russ!). What about the notion of cultural disfunction? Does this not have implications for poverty? I think most countries have some form of cultural disfunction, in the 3rd world countries, it may be the tendency to have more children than you or your economy can actually support, thus intensifying poverty. In the US our version of cultural disfunction is spending more than we actually make and sending our next generation into more and more debt in one big ponzi scheme. We may also eventually implode. It’s also interesting that these are inverse. US doesn’t have an over-fertility problem, and the 3rd world isn’t spending itself into oblivion with expensive wars, plasma TVs and Hummers. Yet in both cases, I think you have cultural traits that have serious long-term economic implications that aren’t good.

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Homeskillet:

quote:
Congrats on the nice-sounding job, Jester. What do you think cliched it for you?

I think it was attitude, and a good interview. An attitude that says "I know I am unqualified for this job, but I also know I can learn and do a damn good job". A master’s degree does not guarantee you’ll get the job done, and I’ve only been here for a month, but they are happy, and from what I hear, my boss has been in a good mood as he was not seen for a long time.

Jboy:

quote:
Jester, do you sleep 19 hours a day ??

I wish I did. Don’t we all?

Sickboy:
Thanks, I lost that link when I switched puters, it’s a damn good argument that focuses not on corporations, nationalities or politics. It has to do with what WE have to do as individuals, but as usual, it’s easier to blame someone else for our miserable lives.

Modulis:

quote: Jester, I have blamed the big business interests in past posts on the numerous other times this topic has come up. If you’ve noticed, I haven’t made any direct attack on the migrants themselves, except for the ones from the MS-13 gang who deserved to be lined up and shot as far as I concerned. Like Russ said, I don’t don’t blame poor people for trying to come here, anyone of us would probably be doing the same. But at the same time, we have to protect our borders and wage structure.

Ahmmm… thanks for your words, but I didn’t write that.

quote: I would. Because you know what, we’re paying for it either directly or indirectly. Sure, we save some money on avocados and lettuce, but we also have public hospitals in California shutting down because they cannot afford to stay open because they’re giving so many births to illegal alien mothers on the taxpayer’s expense. Now all these kids must be educated at $10,000 a pop per year. And let’s not even talk about all the cultural implications such as replacing english with spanish.

And if this isn’t blaming, then I don’t know what it is. Yeah, these kids will cost us taxpayers $10,000 a year. Touch shit. Why would you care if Juanito Perez gets an education and a chance for a better life? I don’t blame you for not caring, I honestly don’t, I couldn’t care less myself. But you wrote about another issue, gangs. Hopefully those $10,000 a year will keep one or two people from becoming part of a gang, and becoming a danger to my children and me. I’d love to know my taxes in Mexico are put to good use as this one. Sadly, over here it’s bullshit. It would be better if some illegal alien never came to your country and reproduced, I know, but of all the evils, educating a kid is the lesser one.

Vera:

As always, I’m taking my hat off, as usual, trying to look into as much sides of the story as you can.

quote: In other words, Evolution doesn’t exist and shouldn’t be taught in schools but we’ll keep praying each night that Monsanto’s newest pest control will be able to hone in on the way bugs are evolving right now.

Brilliant.

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quote: Yeah, these kids will cost us taxpayers $10,000 a year. Touch shit. Why would you care if Juanito Perez gets an education and a chance for a better life?

On second thought, maybe it’s better that they’re up here learning English than down there reading Memin Penguin comics!

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Yeah, avoiding Memin Pinguin will also prevent these kids from becoming radical extremists who want to harm America because they are envious.

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Modulis, anyone, have you seen the movie Crash yet ?? (Hope must have, she’s movie junkie!)

What did you think ??

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Never saw it.

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Bluntly the idea of immigrants "stealing" jobs is bullshit and is simply another variation on the ‘lump of labour fallacy’ which was discredited a long time ago. Well 1891 to be exact. What the LOLF says is that there are only limited jobs to go around and so for example if you reduce the number of hours everybody works by 10% then the number of jobs will increase by 10%. In the real world it never works that way as countries like France have found to their cost.

Ditto with immigrants, if you send 10 million immigrants ‘back home’ then that does not result in 10m new jobs for the people of the country. Some of those people will have been doing low paid jobs that the local don’t want to do and others will have vital skills which the locals don’t have. My ex (an American) teaches english in Spain illegally – if she gets booted home then locals just can’t do the job as well.

I definitely wouldn’t defend exploitation of immigrants but…often when you’ve immigrants working for lower wages then everyone benefits. The customers get cheaper goods and products and the owner makes a bigger profit which often he can use to expand his business by opening more chains, employing more people. So employment is created for local people rather than taken away from them.

As for "Spanish being spoken in the kitchen" so what? As far as I know the USA doesn’t have any official languages though I could be wrong. I worked in Spain but naturally spoke English with co-workers, it being our first language and all. If you don’t like the people in the kitchen talking among themselves in the language of their choice you’ve two choices – go and learn Spanish or suck on it as you shouldn’t have been eavesdropping on them in the first place!

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Off subject, shit I have a filthy habit of doing that.

Interesting that you said that! My sister works at a casino here in Winnipeg (somewhere between a wheat and a corn field) anyway last year there was a gigantic controversy regarding the use of French at the card tables. Apparently the government-run establishment was eager to ban players from speaking French while playing blackjack, poker, etc (anything at the tables). I guess they were concerned about the possibility of cheating, or something along those lines. The rather angry French community spoke out and demanded something to be done (remember Canada is a bilingual nation although the province of New Brunswick I believe is the only official bilingual one). So yeah the Doer government came up with the idea to introduce a couple of ‘bilingual’ tables, basically the dealers and the pit bosses speak French. I wonder if the McDonald’s workers are next on their list…

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That’s interesting, my buddy and I were playing Euchre and Tuppi (their game)in the bar with a few Finns the other week and they were on a team and had the advantage of speaking Finnish to each other while we had nothing to stop that with. Makes you really stop and think…

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quote:
Modulis, anyone, have you seen the movie Crash yet ?? (Hope must have, she’s movie junkie!)

What did you think ??

Decent movie, a little over-rated. The pre-conceived notions and prejudices of the characters at the beginning of the movie are very real, but some of the situations that helped change their opinions were contrived and the movie was better when it was released in 1999 as Magnolia.

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quote:
quote:now the question is this: if there were no illegal immigrants, would these jobs offer a higher pay…a liveable wage for a native?

Of course they’d offer more pay. Lots of illegals make subminimum wages. They’re slaves by our standards. Citizens have been to school and know their rights and can speak the language and have others who will help protect them from greedy, abusive employers.
And if it’s even a little bit true what you say – that employers will have a hard time filling positions with citizens – then wages will obviously go up. Remember that supply-demand principle? It almost seems like you are saying we should keep illegals here and abuse them so that employers can have an easy time of it and so that none of us native-born types will ever have to break a sweat.

Again, I don’t have the time to read and respond to eveyrthing.

But RUSS:

Seriously man, stop with the ignorant world-hating Republicanisms. For once, I’m actually on your side here.

I’ll say it in plain English:

What I’m sying is: we need either to crack down on illegal immigration and employment of illegal immigrants, or legalize these illegal immigrants. Both of these actions would raise the cost of labor and eventually goods and services. As an advocate of workers’ rights, this change is something I‘d be willing to put up with. However, welathy industrialists and the Republican party whom they and you support would never allow this to happen. Illegal immigration works in their favor.

Again, wake up and smell the $dollars$.


beach-lunch-siesta-beach-shower-dinner-nightlife-repeat

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A lot of these companies have a lot of money tied up in factories and infrastructure in the US already. Therefore outsourcing is not feasable or they would waste money. Therefore to pay the workers as less as possible to maximize profits, they wnoucrage illegal immigrants to come and work because it benefits them regardless of social costs and demographic change which they don’t care about.

Taking it out on the victims rather than the perpetrators just means the companies are doing a good job manipulating the other middle/lower class people to defend them.

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These are the same types of companies that refuse to build refineries to help gasoline production because the profits are un-fucking-believable!

Why build something to reduce your profit to non-record-setting-every-other-day levels?

Patriotism?

Nah.

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It’s about time!

http://sify.com/news…

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So easy to get people to focus elsewhere!

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After reading that, mod, it seems pretty clear that a lot of them aren’t coming here to do jobs we don’t want to do. I didn’t know it was that bad, really.

beach: I think we all know that wages will rise if illegals are sent home. So why your question, exactly? And I don’t really see the connection between your original question and my response, and your further comments.

Also, it is worth noting that the whole anti-illegal movement is essentially a Republican phenomenon. Hillary added her voice once she figured which way the wind was blowing, but the din from the Republican side on this issue was already deafening. "Wealthy industrialists" fortunately are not in total control of this country, or we wouldn’t have ADA laws or smog regulations. Politicians are going to respond to the illegal problem and there will be reforms. It wouldn’t surprise me at all if big business jumped in as well, because down the road, if illegals continue to stream in unabated, these companies will lose their American middle class consumer base.

What are you thinking? National Guard? Berlin Wall? Imprisonment for employers of illegals? What would give this some teeth?

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quote:if illegals continue to stream in unabated, these companies will lose their American middle class consumer base.

This is interesting. Can you elaborate on it please?

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What? The same companies that are bagging their middle class
professional workers and sending their jobs to India & Asia???

Russ, living in a bubble springs to mind, or either that you’re racist and constructing argument against ethnic minorities!

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See if this works.

http://ssil.uoregon….