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68 replies
Kaboom, Los Angeles
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Could these clowns pull off a nuclear attack on an American city, or is it just neocon propaganda to distract people as their ‘free societies’ are transformed even further into police states?

Although I think the capabilities of the various Islamic terrorists and the Al Qaeda bogeyman are over-stated, I still think this article is best read accompanied by a stiff drink, preferably a whiskey of some kind.

An even more sinister idea (not discussed in this article though)- the powers-that-be allowing something like this to happen to usher in some kind of new world order. It would definitely be the end of the free society in the US. Martial law would prevail.
The repercussions for the rest of the western world would be quite massive.

Some quotes from this article that I’m on about…

“Osama bin Laden is planning what he calls an "American Hiroshima," the ultimate terrorist attack on U.S. cities, using nuclear weapons already smuggled into the country across the Mexican border along with thousands of sleeper agents.

The series of attacks is designed to kill 4 million, destroy the economy and fundamentally alter the course of history. “

“Bin Laden’s goal, according to G2 Bulletin sources, is to launch one initial attack, followed by a second on another city to simulate the U.S. bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The optimal dates for the attacks are Aug. 6, the anniversary of the Hiroshima bombing, Sept. 11 and May 14, the anniversary of the re-creation of the state of Israel in 1948. No specific year has been suggested, however, this
Aug. 6 represents the 60th anniversary of the Hiroshima attack. “

“Another requirement dictated from the top at al-Qaida is that the attacks take place in daylight, so that the whole world will be able to see the images of a mushroom cloud over an American city.”

“As previously reported by G2 Bulletin, al-Qaida has obtained at least 40 nuclear weapons from the former Soviet Union – including suitcase nukes, nuclear mines, artillery shells and even some missile warheads. In addition, documents captured in Afghanistan show al-Qaida had plans to assemble its own nuclear weapons with fissile material it purchased on the black market. “

“At least half the nuclear weapons in the al-Qaida arsenal were obtained for cash from the Chechen terrorist allies. “

http://www.worldnetd…

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Ooooooooooooooooohhhh, the Herr is shaking in his pants!!!!!!!

takes a swig of his beer

Ooooooooooooooooohhhh!!!!!!!!

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Paris, Nice, Arles, Barcelona, Valencia, Seville, Madrid
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I’d posted this story a couple weeks ago, plus heard a couple interviews with this guy on the radio. He says that he was an FBI informant. I don’t know how credible it is, but what we do know is that the terrorists WANT to do this and there probably are suitcase nukes from the collapsed Soviet Union that fell into some sinister hands. Smuggling one into the country would be no harder than smuggling drugs into the country. I think the likelyhood of such a scenario is quite probable. We’re sitting ducks. Senator Tom Tancredo then made his comment about nuking Mecca if the terrorists pull off a nuclear terrorist attack of this magnitude. If the terrorists knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that their holiest cities would become radioactive craters if they destroyed L.A. and N.Y. in a nuclear terror attack, maybe they’d reconsider whether it’s worth the cost.

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Hitting L.A., Gary, IN; Dallas or some place like that, would be doing us a favour!

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I do think we should at least discuss the nuke Mecca thing.. If we know they are going to do this to us EVENTUALLY, then they should know what the consequences will be. OF course that’s all a bit diplomatically complicated, but… I mean, in order to even discuss it, we’d have to admit a clash of civilizations, which the namby-pambies who control the world don’t want to admit while they’re busy bending over backwards to appease terrorist-sympathisers(i.e. a whole lot of Muslims – I’d guess at least 10.678923906% of them……..)

Seriously though, as outrageous(at least in part intentionally) as this post seems, it’s kind of neat to think what this kind of talk would sound like AFTER THE EVENT….

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Osama Bin Laden is hiding, with tail between his legs – in a friggin cave in the middle of hell. He does not have the contacts, money, or operational ability to pull-off a major attack of any kind, much-less drop a nuclear bomb from a plane. How is he going to deliver it? These morons know how to make body & car bombs out of relatively inexpensive items, and learned this crap on the internet, etc. They often blow-up nobody but themselves, but when "successful" Johnny Johad and his retarded cousins manage to blow-up women, children, and the elderly. Bravo men, what a brave bunch of soldiers!!!! Give me a break!

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Houston, Texas

*It’s the nation’s fourth most populous city,
*The home of the Johnson Space Center,
*The declared home town of the Bush family,
*And has the nation’s largest chemical district.

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quote:Osama Bin Laden is hiding, with tail between his legs – in a friggin cave in the middle of hell. He does not have the contacts, money, or operational ability to pull-off a major attack of any kind, much-less drop a nuclear bomb from a plane. How is he going to deliver it? These morons know how to make body & car bombs out of relatively inexpensive items, and learned this crap on the internet, etc. They often blow-up nobody but themselves, but when "successful" Johnny Johad and his retarded cousins manage to blow-up women, children, and the elderly. Bravo men, what a brave bunch of soldiers!!!! Give me a break!

Do you honestly believe this? I think that Osama is smarter than we all give him credit for. He pulled off an attack of giant scale with very few people. He is smart enough to understand how the US would react (given that we helped train him). He understands that this war is not going to see an end in one persons lifetime. This is a generational war and while Osama may not be around for the next attack I cant help but think that he already has the wheels in motion for the next big attack. Hiding in a hole… perhaps but do you really think he didnt see it coming? Come on!

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Good.

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If a nuclear weapon was detonated in Los Angeles, at least some of the producers of the world’s lowest, common denominator cultural output would be wiped out (if they set the damn thing off in the right part of town).

The world’s porno industry would be wiped out too, as well as a hell of a lot of malignant, self-centred and terribly shallow individuals which unfortunately define the USA’s worldwide image…

At the same time, a hell of a lot of good, decent, friendly and cool people would be killed or maimed so I wouldn’t be throwing any parties for the event.

I have to agree with Sunskin though. The Al-Qaeda network is nowhere near as much of a threat as is made out by the authorities and media in the US and UK.
Information obtained from interrogations/ torture is notoriously unreliable. Prisoners say what they think their interrogators want to hear or else make stuff up to confuse the enemy. Some of the previous high alerts were as a result of info obtained from suspects who later admitted to getting their ideas from blockbuster movies. The same info is presented as credible-eg, after 9/11 there were government warnings in the US about bridges in California being targeted and then malls that Halloween.

A few bombs here and there, (London, Madrid etc) bad as they are, are hardly going to bring down western civilisation. Of course I’ll revisit my point of view if I see a mushroom cloud over LA next week…

If that did happen, what would happen next? For a start, I bet Iran would get nuked, as is being war-gamed in the Pentagon right now.

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quote:
If a nuclear weapon was detonated in Los Angeles, at least some of the producers of the world’s lowest, common denominator cultural output would be wiped out (if they set the damn thing off in the right part of town).

The world’s porno industry would be wiped out too, as well as a hell of a lot of malignant, self-centred and terribly shallow individuals which unfortunately define the USA’s worldwide image…

At the same time, a hell of a lot of good, decent, friendly and cool people would be killed or maimed so I wouldn’t be throwing any parties for the event.

I have to agree with Sunskin though. The Al-Qaeda network is nowhere near as much of a threat as is made out by the authorities and media in the US and UK.
Information obtained from interrogations/ torture is notoriously unreliable. Prisoners say what they think their interrogators want to hear or else make stuff up to confuse the enemy. Some of the previous high alerts were as a result of info obtained from suspects who later admitted to getting their ideas from blockbuster movies. The same info is presented as credible-eg, after 9/11 there were government warnings in the US about bridges in California being targeted and then malls that Halloween.

A few bombs here and there, (London, Madrid etc) bad as they are, are hardly going to bring down western civilisation. Of course I’ll revisit my point of view if I see a mushroom cloud over LA next week…

If that did happen, what would happen next? For a start, I bet Iran would get nuked, as is being war-gamed in the Pentagon right now.

If they only had one bomb, I suspect they’d use it on Washington D.C.,New York or some other densely populated east coast metropolis. L.A. is too spread out to have much bang for your buck here. You’d need about 100 suitcase bombs to destroy L.A. A terrorist with a suitcase nuke could do a hell of a lot of damage to the section of town it went off it, but wouldn’t level an entire city like a 100 megaton ICBM would. Most people in that city wouldn’t die, but it would destroy the local economy if put in the right location.

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Oh, and the porn industry would survive just fine since it’s located on the fringe of town.

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Thanks Mod, I was getting worried. Japanese porno has way too much censorship.

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Call me naive…., but I think WHATEVER they do, the effect will be more to rejuvinate Western Civ, rather than destroy it. Put differenty, it may jolt us out of our dumbheaded left-wing(you got it! post 60’s!!!…) self-castrating dreamworld.. I can’t help it, but for some reason I still have faith we’ve got enough spine to come out on top..

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quote:Oh, and the porn industry would survive just fine since it’s located on the fringe of town.

Whew!

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quote:
Call me naive…., but I think WHATEVER they do, the effect will be more to rejuvinate Western Civ, rather than destroy it. Put differenty, it may jolt us out of our dumbheaded left-wing(you got it! post 60’s!!!…) self-castrating dreamworld.. I can’t help it, but for some reason I still have faith we’ve got enough spine to come out on top..

What is your deal dude? Seriously.

You hate Al-Qaida so much you want to nuke Mecca? What would nuking Mecca accomplish? Nothing.

I also find it surprising that your numb enough to world events to think that we are actually in some sort of left-wing machination. Take a look around and see who is in power. It’s not the left.

As to this topic in general, yeah UBL has probably worked with the Chechens here or there but there’s no evidence at all that the Chechens have ever got their hands on nuclear devices. This is fantasy la la crap that warmongers dream up to scare the shit out of people. Nuclear powers are NOT in the business of assisting terrorists with nuclear weapons. I mean, think about it. We know enough about every type of nuclear weapon, nuclear fuel, etc. that if a bomb went off in LA we would be able to study the after effect and find out almost immediately:

a) what fuel was used
b) where that fuel came from
c) who built the nuke
d) where it was purchased/stolen

Then, whichever nuclear power was stupid enough to give a nuke to terrorists would find themselves on the wrong end of a US retaliatory strike of some kind.

In a world that is almost always viewed by policy practitioners as zero-sum as well as a loosely organized anarchy of states, no nuclear nation would go so far as to doom itself so stupidly. I’d even put money down on N. Korea never giving nukes to terrorists because as crazy as Kim Jong Il is, he is as self-interested as any other leader and he is not looking to vacate his seat of power any time soon.

There are so many ways that terrorists could hit Americans it’s just stupid to sit around and worry about every single one. We have plenty of well-funded and intelligent individuals watching the fucks who are out to kill us and while their work is as efficient as possible, we live in a country that is too big to wall off from the world. Hell, our economic/political strategy is the exact opposite.

Getting back to nuking Mecca…what a fucking stupid comment/idea. This would play DIRECTLY into UBL’s hands as yet another attack on Islam, etc. PositiveIdiot likes to play up my arguments as to who exactly we’re dealing with (I argue that it’s not Islam and is a small percentage of people) and while I understand his propensity to view things in simplistic and reductionist frameworks (a lot of people do this) it is not an intelligent viewpoint.

Taking out Mecca would immediately alienate the Muslim world as a whole which is over ONE BILLION people. This is not the response that US political representatives should be talking about…even one. If you take a cursory glance at US-Muslim relations you will find that the US is allied with nearly EVERY country in the Islamic World.

US ALLIES:

Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Libya, Turkey, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Jordan, Lebanon, Kuwait, Qatar, Oman, Yemen, Iraq, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Bahrain, UAE, Djibouti, Bangladesh, Malaysia, Thailand, Phillipines, etc.

The US is also allied in the War on Terror with the likes of Syria!

The US is also allied with many Former Soviet Republics who have sizeable Islamic populations and political influences like Georgia, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Kazakhstan.

The only ‘problem’ states are Iran and Iraq. Iran is more of a rhetorical enemy as well seeing that neither the US or Iran have undertaken any actions that are to the detriment of the other. Iran’s main problem is the speculation as to whether or not it has nukes and/or is seeking nukes. Now, Iran has been pretty open to negotiations and Europe is doing a far better job of being a protagonist for a peaceful resolution than the US is.

It’s also worth pointing out that Iran is already a major Iraqi ally which kind of makes them a silent partner to the US as well.

Iraq is a problem that has been spawned out of the Hussein era and our most recent attempts to ‘change’ Iraq into a democratic nation via military invasion and occupation. Without going further, we all know that this has not been a simple endeavor.

This brings me to my next question as to why the US would seek violent action against Iraq when it had no terror connectin to the attacks on 9-11. That is, the US decided to try and put democracy into Iraq after 9-11 and by doing so they wish to alter the way business is done in the region.

However, as I’ve outlined above, the US is FRIENDLY with the vast majority of the Islamic World and its governments and this democratic move would seem to be antagonistic to our non-democratic allies (aka Kings, Emirs, Sultans, and Dictators). Why not start to democratize the region through our allies and work from the outside-in? Our allies would surely be more open to the idea of letting democracy into the picture in ways that could eventually change the region don’t you think? It wouldn’t even require the type of resource drain (unless you’re a terrorist/insurgent type) that Iraq has become.

Furhtermore, after Iraq is over…if it is ever over…and democracy manages to grow there, is the US going to point to the Iraqi example and then start telling other countries that they too must democratize or we will spend another 1/4 trillion dollars, ~2000 American lives, ~20,000 American wounded, etc. if they don’t?

Just some food for thought.

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[Pssst!]

Vera, don’t waste your time with that closet turd burgular. He’s a troll that’s been polluting our otherwise-sanctimonious ground for too long. Get this: He thinks people here really give a shit about his bloated, self-inflated opinions!

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JonDD: People give these terrorists too much credit. Yes, they have some common sense, knowledge of a few very bad things, etc. However, should we be patting them on the back? I think not. They caught us a few times with our pants & guard down. That is the nature of human beings. We do not want to believe that evil, murderous, sick, twisted, insane people are out there in large numbers, but we know (deep down) – that they are! Nobody expected 3 or 4 idiots to take-over a plane, then smash it into American landmarks. In-fact, I can almost guarantee you that only the leader of each "cell" of scumbags actuall knew that 9/11 was to be a suicide attack, using the 767 & 757 planes as missles. It is likely that 3/4 of those morons only knew that they were hijacking a plane, and did not know where the leader (pilot) was going to take said plane…

Let’s give the life-loving, non-evil people some credit here. The U.S. Troops have killed thousands of terrorists, with the help of other countries, and the Brit’s did not play-around with these 7/21 bombers at all – catching them and hitting them over the skull a time or two – rather quickly… Some of those guys/gals are pretty smart too.

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No, what is your deal, dude?!

First of all, yes, Bush isn’t exactly left-leaning by contemporary standards, but from my view he’s left of where we need to be. I’m thinking less redneck Christian fundamentalism, more Roman or British Empire. Though if it takes rejuvinating the former to stiffen our cultural spine in the face of the BROADER Islamic threat, then so be it..

I’ve said it before, but one more time: Iraq was a mistake. I can’t dispute that. Though I do think the mistake had to do more with HOW it was done, rather than THAT it was done. Bad diplomacy, bad face on it. Bush is a nightmare for America’s image abroad. But Iraq had it coming.

And seriously guy, you go to borderline strange (extreme?..)lengths to defend Islam. First of all, it’s a religion – that means a superstitious stupidity. Second of all, it’s a religion with a serious problem nowadays. Spare me the percentages.. And finally, a lot of this has to do with multiculturalism, which in Europe is a foolish disaster..

When they nuke an American city, then will you see things differently? Or convert to Islam(if you haven’t already)?

Next point: I heard one of these jackasses blamed the London blasts directly on Iraq. TO REPEAT: it’s Muslims who are blowing up children in Iraq nowadays!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And in the name of ISLAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Last point: I guess you’re thrilled to hear about the rich Saudi who’s giving 20 million € to build an Islamic art wing at the Louvre.. That is a cultural disaster, pure and simple. Would like to go into that more, but gotta’ work just now..

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quote:
Last point: I guess you’re thrilled to hear about the rich Saudi who’s giving 20 million € to build an Islamic art wing at the Louvre.. That is a cultural disaster, pure and simple. Would like to go into that more, but gotta’ work just now..

In return, I’d like to take up a collection and have a sex museum built in the heart of Riyadh, anyone want to contribute? As long as we must accept their culture, they might as well accept ours.

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We don’t accept their culture goofball, we accept their MONEY. I’m sure we could try and offer them some money for your sex museum but, well, they’ve got more money than they can shake a stick of dynamite at.

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But seriously, I want to see a Disneyland Mecca…. And lots of Westerners moving in DROVES to live there and take advantages of all the benefits their culture has to offer. And then, can you imagine if tons of Westerners lived in Mecca, and some native Muslim produced some artwork critical of this subgroup and its culture and values, and then was BRUTALLY MURDERED by a member of this subgroup living there, because he was offended or whatthefuckever??? You know what I’m talking about.. And our situation is precisely that ridiculous..

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It is not a cultural disaster to support good art. Better than arming suicide bombers!

quote:Next point: I heard one of these jackasses blamed the London blasts directly on Iraq. TO REPEAT: it’s Muslims who are blowing up children in Iraq nowadays!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And in the name of ISLAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

Nowadays being the key word.

Sure, what they are doing is wrong, but doing it the name of, uh, Im not sure exactly… isn’t exactly better.

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quote:
First of all, yes, Bush isn’t exactly left-leaning by contemporary standards, but from my view he’s left of where we need to be. I’m thinking less redneck Christian fundamentalism, more Roman or British Empire. Though if it takes rejuvinating the former to stiffen our cultural spine in the face of the BROADER Islamic threat, then so be it..

This is precisely the bullshit of your point of view. What IS the "BROADER Islamic threat" to you? My argument is that there is no BROADEDR threat. It is a particular mindset, not religion, that is attacking western entities. This mindset makes up a small group of people who are effectively hiding among the masses and even in our own cities. If there WAS a broad threat from Islam then we would be seeing far more shit in the world. 1 Billion Muslims could create quite a stir if your hyperbolic load was anywhere near the truth.

Now, I’ve acknowledged a problem within Islam when it comes to the Salafi mindset. This is a problem for MUSLIMS before it is one for us although we are a close second since the Salafi mindest is conducive or let’s say vulnerable to the type of mindset that is bombing subways in London. Thing is, the Muslims are trying to cope with it but you’ve got interesting juxtapositions like US-occupied Iraq for Democracy and US-allied Saudi Arabia for auto-theocracy. What the fuck kind of message is THAT to send? Then another major US ally, Mubarak, has pro-democracy reformists BEATEN and arrested in the streets because they dared to protest against him and his 24-year uncontested and autocratic rule. We pay Mubarak nearly 3 billion a year! What message does this send?

Now, I can see the realist geopolitics and undertones of The Prince but somehow we pretend like this isn’t the case, that we are too ‘left’ (!?), and that we need to be more "Roman" (??) in order to deal with a relatively small group of people that have successfully drained the country’s coffers and tied up the most powerful military in the world in what was a 4th world country (maybe 5th or 6th—level of hell that is) BEFORE invasion, occupation, and insurgency!

quote:
And seriously guy, you go to borderline strange (extreme?..)lengths to defend Islam. First of all, it’s a religion – that means a superstitious stupidity. Second of all, it’s a religion with a serious problem nowadays. Spare me the percentages.. And finally, a lot of this has to do with multiculturalism, which in Europe is a foolish disaster..

Where am I defending Islam in such extreme ways? Is it when I point out that the US is allied with 99% of the Islamic World? Is it when I poke holes in reductionist bullshit that makes Muslims as a whole some amorphous and ambiguous problem that must be dealt with somehow because they are hellbent on world domination? I’m defending those who ARE NOT attacking us. Here’s a clue, that’s the VAST majority of every Muslim on the planet that’s not attacking us yet is being thrown into blanket policies with those who are. I know you don’t like the percentages but that’s because the reality of who we are up against doesn’t fit with your narrow and ignorant point of view. If you could, for once, acknowledge who it is that we are actually up against and drop the exaggerative bullshit about a "BROADER Islamic threat" then maybe you and ‘we’ could get somewhere.

I’m not a great fan of religion myself although I tend to see it as yet another avenue that we humans use to try to get to the same place we’re all looking for.

Multiculturalism is not the problem. I’d like to hear your arguments as to how it is though.

quote:
When they nuke an American city, then will you see things differently? Or convert to Islam(if you haven’t already)?

Who is ‘they’ to you? In any case, I’ve outlined above why there will most likely never be a nuked American city. Do you have anything to say about what I said above in relation to this? Nuking American cities is also the thoughts of simpletons peddled onto the populace by the likes of Condi Rice ("there will be mushroom clouds over American cities if we don’t take out Iraq" —a paraphrase but she said that to justify Iraq). These outlandish disaster stories only serve one purpose at this point—to scare people.

Now, we HAVE people who work on this sort of thing (Valerie Plame was one before she was outed) and they do a damn good job of keeping track of such things. We have many people who are actively and justly fighting against those people who ARE wanting to attack us, some of them are good friends of mine. Hell, even I translate for the government in its effort to fight those we ARE up against.

I won’t argue against an image problem for the US across the greater Middle East/Islamic World either. That is our fault though, we elected this asshole and he and his ‘leadership’ are representing us. That we have an image problem does not translate into massive threat from the Islamic World.

Why does my stance evoke stupid claims from you like asking if I have converted to Islam already? That makes no sense and only makes your arguments look all the more stupid.

quote:
Next point: I heard one of these jackasses blamed the London blasts directly on Iraq. TO REPEAT: it’s Muslims who are blowing up children in Iraq nowadays!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And in the name of ISLAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

True, but ask most Muslims on the street in Iraq and you won’t find support for ‘my Muslim brothers and sisters who are killing us’. If you think about it, Democracy is just another thing to blow people up in the name of although we might see it as more righteous and worthy than religion. That is, people are very religious about democracy.

quote:
Last point: I guess you’re thrilled to hear about the rich Saudi who’s giving 20 million € to build an Islamic art wing at the Louvre.. That is a cultural disaster, pure and simple. Would like to go into that more, but gotta’ work just now..

Why would I be thrilled? I hated Saudi when I was there and still hold a special place in my heart where I hate the leadership and the country in general—the way it exists today. Granted, I have many Saudi friends and some Saudi colleagues and I’m not so stupid as to believe that everyone in Saudi Arabia is of the same feather.

Why is it a cultural disaster to display Arab/Islamic art?

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God your point-by-point quoting thing is obnoxious.. Anyway, I firmly believe that there is a broader Islamist threat. But OK, maybe I’m just incredibly stupid. That there is a broader threat is proven by the fact that these terrorist acts are carried out in the name of Islam. Living in Europe I get pretty fucking sick of hearing all the America-bashing. Yes, Iraq was a disaster, but what percentage of Americans actually wanted the war?(I didn’t) Yet it’s America, "the great Satan" that’s the enemy. And come on guy, how many of us have seen street-fulls of people burning American flags and effigies of American presidents with near-orgiastic exuberance? I don’t have the percentages, but there’s sure as hell a lot more sympathy out there for terrorist acts than you seem willing to admit. I mean, for fuck’s sake, I spend more time arguing about this with Westerners than with Muslims(please don’t quote that to prove how uninformed I am..) As long as these horrible, savage, and ignorant acts of cowardice and resentment continue to be carried out in the name of Islam, Islam is a threat..

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quote:
God your point-by-point quoting thing is obnoxious.

Sorry, I’m not sure how else you’re supposed to do it in here and still keep your comments in some sort of context that has the least chance of being misunderstood.

quote:
Anyway, I firmly believe that there is a broader Islamist threat. But OK, maybe I’m just incredibly stupid.

Can you at least articulate what you mean by "broad" "Islamic" "Threat"?

This:

quote:
That there is a broader threat is proven by the fact that these terrorist acts are carried out in the name of Islam.

Is a pretty weak argument.

quote:
Living in Europe I get pretty fucking sick of hearing all the America-bashing. Yes, Iraq was a disaster, but what percentage of Americans actually wanted the war?(I didn’t) Yet it’s America, "the great Satan" that’s the enemy

See, I am pro-America and the thing that really freaks me out is that I can point out how Iraq isn’t going swimmingly and how that then ties into this great war on terror we have going and people AUTOMATICALLY start from the position that I am bashing America for daring to articulate some truths.

I wish we weren’t here too and I’m not busy bashing America. On the contrary, I’m trying to provide some context for a lot of the anti-Islamic rhetoric by pointing out some of America’s realities…like fucking up Iraq.

quote:
And come on guy, how many of us have seen street-fulls of people burning American flags and effigies of American presidents with near-orgiastic exuberance?

Sure it happens every now and then but so what? People can burn flags in the streets here too…it’s democracy (and to quote Rumsfeld "democracy can be messy&quotWink. Sure no one is burning effigies of Bush in the US because that somehow translates into a death threat on Bush.

quote:
I don’t have the percentages, but there’s sure as hell a lot more sympathy out there for terrorist acts than you seem willing to admit.

Can you even find anything to back it up besides stating it matter-of-factly?

quote:
I mean, for fuck’s sake, I spend more time arguing about this with Westerners than with Muslims(please don’t quote that to prove how uninformed I am..)

It actually makes sense given your Geography.

quote:
As long as these horrible, savage, and ignorant acts of cowardice and resentment continue to be carried out in the name of Islam, Islam is a threat..

See, that leap you made there at the end is strange. You’re equating a fringe movement within Islam that has managed to hit western targets about 20 times in a VERY big way (if you don’t count Iraq or A-stan) with the entire religion.

Bush calls himself a Republican but I know all Republicans aren’t like him. Hell, I’m married to one.

Point being, it’s pretty lazy of you to take some terrorists’ claiming that they do their acts in the name of Islam as a direct threat from the entirety of the religion upon ‘our’ culture (whatever our culture is).

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Geographically, not really.. There are more Muslims in Europe than you can shake a stick at. BTW, I was in a big student bar last night, and in the middle of it all, groups of students having fun at pool tables, etc.. was a big round table full of Middle Eastern looking guys, drinking coffee, smoking cigarettes, playing dominoes, and staring menacingly to be honest at the girls as they walked past(funny that they say women have to wear those burka things because to see their bodies would make men go crazy.. As if flying planes into buildings and blowing up buses…) I found it odd – and perhaps symbolic. Facing soberly and seriously inward, backs to everything and everyone else. Why the fuck do they come here?

And even more maddening, why do we encourage it? That’s the truly sickening question..

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Oh yeah, back to the point at hand.. The threat, as I perceive it, IS broader than just the individuals who spinelessly murder people by blowing up buses. It’s the snakes in the woodpile thing again. Sure, some of the snakes might not be poisonous, and maybe even some of the poisonous ones won’t go so far as to bite you, but I anyway don’t want anything to do with snakes.. OK OK that’s simplistic. But you definitely play down the frequency that flag-burning happens in Muslim countries, and by extrapolation, how broad this hatred is. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that hatred for the West and the US in particular in the Muslim world is pretty widespread, and THEREFORE THAT SYMPATHY FOR TERRORISM IF NOT WILLINGNESS TO COMMIT IT IS BROADER TOO..

Now here’s where simpletons like Hope will butt in and say "Like duh, we bombed Iraq!" It’s not that simple.. Iraq is a pathetic excuse, a false facade for a hatred and resentment that was already there(to remind you once again, 9/11 happened before..) And let’s focus on the resentment thing for a sec.. Resentment is a spiteful, LOW, hateful instinct(but I admit all-too-natural..), and there’s no doubt that in the last century, as the West and US in particular prospered, the Arab/Muslim world declined(in the wake of the Ottoman Empire, etc etc..) So when I emphasize culture so much, I’m talking about something much broader and deeper than one particular event like Iraq. Western European countries have had a very long history of conlfict with the Turks, Arabs, etc.. (ever read The Brothers Karamazov? If not you should, not to better understand this situation in particular, but to better understand human nature in general, which in turn helps to better understand particular situations… Anyway, there’s a brutal passage about Turks throwing babies up in the air and catching them on bayonettes.. Human nature does not change.) THEY are the ones who won’t shut up about our supposed "Crusade"!..(despite Bush’s ignorant slip..) And for the last hundred years Muslims have been reduced to a rather low level compared to the West, not to mention suffering humiliating defeats like in 1967. And I think that, more BROADLY, across the culture, this has been burning for a while now, and fuels not only this spineless terrorism but also these calls for a broader Muslim empire(Saliphate? or something like that..) etc.. So, to reiterate, I think in the long run this will turn out to have been about culture, about cultural identity in particular, and that means ultimately about a conflict of cultures. It is terrorism and the extremism that fuels it – AND TO A VAGUER DEGREE ISLAM’S INABILITY TO STOP IT – not my "inane" comments, that is responsible for further polarizing that cultural rift.

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Posman and some others make the point that Iraq was a mistake.. Okay, let’s say that 65% of us agree with that… If so, then I can see men who have lived and slaved in Iraq for 40 years – attacking the U.S. Troops, for what they see as nothing more than an occupation to steal oil, etc.. However, there is nothing you guys or anyone else can ever, ever say that will justify blowing-up women, elderly, and most especially – small, defenseless babies!!!! Along the side of the road, on a train or bus, whatever!!! Those arseholes in England can blame what they did on England and the U.S. being in Iraq all they want. It is a cop-out for trying to kill un-armed civilians, many of whom probably agree with the idiots in many philosophical and political ways…

I am leaving from EWR with $4000 for 9 days

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I don’t think anyone here is defending the actions in question, nevertheless,

They aren’t the only ones who killed civilians and blew up babies and old women either.

There is also a big difference in reporting. Western media reports the insurgents assaults willfully, while Falluja and many of the western operations were heavily censored and supressed.

Im not saying anyside has done more or less than the other, Im just saying that both sides have done some bad shit.

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quote:where simpletons like Hope will butt in
Who’s the simpleton again? The one who speaks in coherent and cogent arguments, or the one who digresses for paragraphs and manages to say absolutely nothing at all?

I can’t even begin to rebutt your statements above because, as vera has pointed out, you don’t even know what you’re trying to say. It’s all a rambling, jumbled mess.

Come back and convey lucid ideas in simple English and then we can talk.

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That’s funny, I didn’t even notice that… shows how much attention I pay positive spam.

He has no right to say that about anyone considering the fact that he LIES about what other people say, like in the other thread.

And I called him on it.

And he ignored it.

If he had any sort of credibility here (none as I see it) there is no more. Fuckin neo con wannabe! Just shows you what kind of role models Cheney, Rice etc. are! Warping poor misguided youths like pm!

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You go girl!!!

(high fives all around..)

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Haha, pm, you’ve been left hangin your whole life!

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Actually hope, without intending to be insulting whatesoever, I don’t take you the least bit seriously. So ordinarily I wouldn’t bother saying anything in your direction. But the way you hurl around trite, unthought-out insults is occasionally annoying. So from now on, unless you ever manage to say something remotely intelligent or thought-provoking, I’ll just lump you in with j-boy and sickboy into the pestering-nuisance-to-be-ignored category..

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It’s alright, it’s quite clear to anyone who natively reads English who is an idiot and who is not. Enough said.

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OK, inane insults aside, back to the topic at hand..

Regarding Iraq, I’m starting to think more and more that whether going to war in Iraq was right or wrong is an open question. I’m inclined to think that given the world situation at the time, it was a mistake. But on the other hand, for a variety of reasons, it could I think be said that they had it coming to them, so to speak..

The bigger and more significant problem was simply one of PR, as I see it. Bush is simply a horrible face for America’s image abroad. So I would say that the mistake wasn’t THAT we went to war in Iraq, but WHEN">HOW we did it. The diplomacy was horrible, and did massive damage to America’s image. Clinton could and would have done it better, would have put a better face on it, as it were.. No political agenda in saying that(I don’t stoop to politics..), just an observation.

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The saddest thing about you is that instead of reading and thinking about people’s other ideas you’ve built up this wall of ignorance and pretension to shield you from other views. Instead of reading and responding you instead think you are intellectually better than the others, but what you don’t realize is that everyone can see through that.

Like a wall of glass! OMGZ LOLZ!

It is no suprise that you feel that way about jboy and me, we both could churn out useless wank like you do, but we have the ability to make our points simply in plain language, something you are utterly incapable of. Not to mention we can articulate when necessary.

You just like to see your own words in print, thats all. Fuck what the others say.

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Positiveman’s latest post:

quote:Regarding Iraq, I’m starting to think more and more that whether going to war in Iraq was right or wrong is an open question. I’m inclined to think that given the world situation at the time, it was a mistake. But on the other hand, for a variety of reasons, it could I think be said that they had it coming to them, so to speak..

The bigger and more significant problem was simply one of PR, as I see it. Bush is simply a horrible face for America’s image abroad. So I would say that the mistake wasn’t THAT we went to war in Iraq, but WHEN">HOW we did it. The diplomacy was horrible, and did massive damage to America’s image. Clinton could and would have done it better, would have put a better face on it, as it were.. No political agenda in saying that(I don’t stoop to politics..), just an observation.

What great insights – unfortunately probably 10 sentences too long and completely unrelated to the discussion about nuclear weapons and major interntational cities. If you want to talk about the invasion of Iraq or nuking Mecca, go post on threads specific to those topics. Clear, logical thinking seems to be lost on you.

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quote:
Oh yeah, back to the point at hand.. The threat, as I perceive it, IS broader than just the individuals who spinelessly murder people by blowing up buses. It’s the snakes in the woodpile thing again. Sure, some of the snakes might not be poisonous, and maybe even some of the poisonous ones won’t go so far as to bite you, but I anyway don’t want anything to do with snakes.. OK OK that’s simplistic.

It is simplistic but let’s take a look at what follows:

quote:
But you definitely play down the frequency that flag-burning happens in Muslim countries, and by extrapolation, how broad this hatred is.

How often are flags burned there? One per week? The point being, frequency of flag burning is not, in and of itself, an explanatory factor as to how broad the swath of people that allegedly hate us is. Seriously though, where was the last flag you saw being burned? I’m not playing it down, I think you are playing it up…especially given our current ambitions vis-a-vis spreading democracy.

Are we saying people can and should have free speech but when they burn our flag then that is over the top and evinces a deep-seated hatred that translates into direct support or propensity for terrorism?

Seems kinda weak to me really, as far as arguments go.

quote:
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that hatred for the West and the US in particular in the Muslim world is pretty widespread, and THEREFORE THAT SYMPATHY FOR TERRORISM IF NOT WILLINGNESS TO COMMIT IT IS BROADER TOO..

I’ll give you that there are a lot of very jaded people (understandably) who are upset with the way the US is rolling around their region bombing people into democracy whilst supporting dictators, Kings, and other non-democratic autocrats.

I would also argue that there is more support for the politics behind some terrorism (at least stated politics) than the terrorist acts themselves. There is growing passive support for the likes of UBL but that’s because they have him in one hand and an autocratic thug in the other being supported by the US. Personally, if I’m being held down in a thug-controlled state and the US is supporting said thug, I wouldn’t like the US so much either. I think that is very human and has nothing to do with support for terrorism. I do think that there is a blurry line with the passive support though. That is, I think people agree with some of the political arguments but disagree with the "ok so now here’s what we’ll do about it" that comes from UBL et al.

quote:
And let’s focus on the resentment thing for a sec.. Resentment is a spiteful, LOW, hateful instinct(but I admit all-too-natural..)

Do you even see how funny it is that you write this sort of thing after your other comments?

quote:
, and there’s no doubt that in the last century, as the West and US in particular prospered, the Arab/Muslim world declined(in the wake of the Ottoman Empire, etc etc..)

Well, I guess it all depends on what you mean by declined. If you mean being driven into the ground by your debt to Europe and losing a World War but then being propped up as a roadblock for Russian incursions into the region by the British, who have their own designs on the region (Suez), and then the discovery of oil brings western powers in to run a friendly-dictator region full of proxy wars and political paranoia that stimulates an active destruction of left-leaning thinkers in the region leaving conservative, extremist autocrats who are anti-democratic but more or less friendly to the west and the west’s need for oil…

Then maybe you’re right.

The sad fact is that the people who have lived through all of this are just as intelligent as you and I. They can see the writing on the wall so to speak and they understand why wars are still fought on their soil. They are justifiably deeply suspicious of any western projects in their lives because the last 125 years haven’t been particularly kind to them.

quote:
So when I emphasize culture so much, I’m talking about something much broader and deeper than one particular event like Iraq. Western European countries have had a very long history of conlfict with the Turks, Arabs, etc..

Conflict spurred by whom? By what?

quote:
(ever read The Brothers Karamazov? If not you should, not to better understand this situation in particular, but to better understand human nature in general, which in turn helps to better understand particular situations…

Sounds interesting but I don’t think I need to read it more to better understand human nature or this situation in particular.

quote:
THEY are the ones who won’t shut up about our supposed "Crusade"!..(despite Bush’s ignorant slip..) And for the last hundred years Muslims have been reduced to a rather low level compared to the West, not to mention suffering humiliating defeats like in 1967.

Another interesting juxtaposition. Do you really think these things have happened in a vaccum?

quote:
And I think that, more BROADLY, across the culture, this has been burning for a while now, and fuels not only this spineless terrorism but also these calls for a broader Muslim empire(Saliphate? or something like that..) etc..

It’s Caliphate but seriously, who is calling for a broader Muslim Empire? Are the leaders of Islamic governments meeting to come together in a pan-Muslimism that is bent on expanding the caliphate across the globe?

No.

The only people calling for such crap are fringe religionists and terror-oriented groups like Al-Qaida. Hardly representative.

Can you please demonstrate that this broad threat is in fact broad?

quote:
So, to reiterate, I think in the long run this will turn out to have been about culture, about cultural identity in particular, and that means ultimately about a conflict of cultures. It is terrorism and the extremism that fuels it – AND TO A VAGUER DEGREE ISLAM’S INABILITY TO STOP IT – not my "inane" comments, that is responsible for further polarizing that cultural rift.

You say "it’s about culture" so simply as if culture is this monolith that is so easily understood as an antagonist and catalyst for conflict.

What comes with culture?

Still man, if you had ever been to a country in the Middle East you’d get more western culture than you can shake a stick at. Shopping malls, marketplaces, restaurants, fast-food, highways, fancy cars, fashion, cell phones galore, computers, coffeeshops, internet cafe’s, and so on.

Saudi Arabia doesn’t = What the Middle East is like.

There are definitely people who don’t like this but they are not the majority.

Then, of course, there are those people who are ruralites and less interested in global politics and burning flags and more interested in surviving and providing for their families. A trait they have in common with their urban counterparts.

If you could try to flesh out your ideas so we could see what you’re on about, it would be a lot easier for you. Just throwing things like "culture" out there as the motivating factor in this is pretty easy to poke some big holes in…just as Huntington’s clash was easy to poke holes in.

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quote:
Geographically, not really.. There are more Muslims in Europe than you can shake a stick at. BTW, I was in a big student bar last night, and in the middle of it all, groups of students having fun at pool tables, etc.. was a big round table full of Middle Eastern looking guys, drinking coffee, smoking cigarettes, playing dominoes, and staring menacingly to be honest at the girls as they walked past(funny that they say women have to wear those burka things because to see their bodies would make men go crazy..

Actually, those burka things are only worn in Afghanistan and even then not universally. Even if you throw in a country like Saudi Arabia and any extremely conservative Muslim family in the region you still have MILLIONS of women who wear the same sorts of fashion that good ol’ western girls wear. Sure, sometimes they wear a hijab (scarf) on their heads but that is hardly a burka. Even still, there are A LOT of women who don’t even wear that except when they pray at the mosque.

You’d know that if you paid more attention to such matters.

quote:
As if flying planes into buildings and blowing up buses…) I found it odd – and perhaps symbolic. Facing soberly and seriously inward, backs to everything and everyone else. Why the fuck do they come here?

Why does anyone come here?

Do you think you might have some cultural baggage yourself that leads you to see them as menacing? Even still, if they were menacing, isn’t it a bit simplistic to then project that group of guys onto an entire culture? The British aren’t universally hated for the Hooligans that travel about rioting and fucking up good football matches are they?!

quote:
And even more maddening, why do we encourage it? That’s the truly sickening question..

Xenophobe are we?

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Vera says:

quote:PositiveIdiot likes to play up my arguments as to who exactly we’re dealing with (I argue that it’s not Islam and is a small percentage of people) and while I understand his propensity to view things in simplistic and reductionist frameworks (a lot of people do this) it is not an intelligent viewpoint.
Wow positiveman, looks like I’m not the only person who thinks you’re simplistic and that your viewpoints lack intelligence and logic!

Oh wait, someone else does too:

Syd says to vera:

quote:Vera, don’t waste your time with that closet turd burgular. He’s a troll that’s been polluting our otherwise-sanctimonious ground for too long. Get this: He thinks people here really give a shit about his bloated, self-inflated opinions!

Wow, looks like we’re onto something here!

Positiveman, let me point out a pattern to you:
1) Someone on here makes some sort of political or cultural statement
2) Regardless of the statement’s topic, positiveman somehow interjects with a comment regarding left vs. right and post-60s multiculturalism. He veers off-topic completely.
3) The comment is usually several paragraphs of digressions, filled with spelling errors and logic errors; akin to the drunken ramblings I’ve heard uttered by homeless people on the street.
4) Positiveman then tries to defend himself when attacked, but only manages to illustrate his gross ignorance and xenophobia, such as with his opinions re: Middle Eastern men at a local bar.
5) Somehow Nieszche and something fatalistic is mentioned (this is in the future for this thread).

Just end it now. It’s far too painful for the rest of us.

Positiveman says to vera:

quote: God your point-by-point quoting thing is obnoxious..
Au contraire, it’s an example of argumentative rhetoric applied by someone who tries to address points clearly and fairly. It shows that he’s read what you’ve written.

You could use it as a model lesson.

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quote:
Vera says:
quote:PositiveIdiot likes to play up my arguments as to who exactly we’re dealing with (I argue that it’s not Islam and is a small percentage of people) and while I understand his propensity to view things in simplistic and reductionist frameworks (a lot of people do this) it is not an intelligent viewpoint.
Wow positiveman, looks like I’m not the only person who thinks you’re simplistic and that your viewpoints lack intelligence and logic!

Oh wait, someone else does too:

Syd says to vera:

quote:Vera, don’t waste your time with that closet turd burgular. He’s a troll that’s been polluting our otherwise-sanctimonious ground for too long. Get this: He thinks people here really give a shit about his bloated, self-inflated opinions!

Wow, looks like we’re onto something here!

Positiveman, let me point out a pattern to you:
1) Someone on here makes some sort of political or cultural statement
2) Regardless of the statement’s topic, positiveman somehow interjects with a comment regarding left vs. right and post-60s multiculturalism. He veers off-topic completely.
3) The comment is usually several paragraphs of digressions, filled with spelling errors and logic errors; akin to the drunken ramblings I’ve heard uttered by homeless people on the street.
4) Positiveman then tries to defend himself when attacked, but only manages to illustrate his gross ignorance and xenophobia, such as with his opinions re: Middle Eastern men at a local bar.
5) Somehow Nieszche and something fatalistic is mentioned (this is in the future for this thread).

Just end it now. It’s far too painful for the rest of us.

Positiveman says to vera:

quote: God your point-by-point quoting thing is obnoxious..
Au contraire, it’s an example of argumentative rhetoric applied by someone who tries to address points clearly and fairly. It shows that he’s read what you’ve written.

You could use it as a model lesson.

(smiling, but wincing in mock pain) Damn, hope, your venom is well-thought, organized, supported by examples and………..quite on the mark. I give you an A!

(looking around the room)Now…….only a true idiot would attempt to rebut this.

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OK hope you dumb bitch, let’s take a brief look at this overwhelming case you’ve made against me..

First of all, you quote Veracocha, who I’ll admit at least makes cogent and sometimes compelling – in any case intelligent – if often annoyingly sophistic arguments(by that I mean he has his position and isn’t likely to change – AS WE ALL DO – and uses rational – sometimes overly rational – argumentation to lay open other people’s positions and put the onus on them to conjure up some objective proof for why his position is TRUE. Reason is always only a means to an end, i.e. a tool.)

Second, you say I’m unintelligent every chance you get – and use a quote from somebody who referred to me as a "turd-burglar" to back up your point..(I admit, "turd-burglar" is a funny word.., but I wouldn’t use it in the context of disagreeing with someone who – like his point of view or not – is trying however combatively to discuss important topics.. Because that’s all I do. On the one hand yeah, sharpening more sword, so to speak, but on the other, I do sometimes hear interesting and thought-provoking things in here – but to be honest hope, and in no way insulting, never from you..)

Third, I graduated a long time ago, and no longer feel compelled to write mini-term papers to express my opinion. I do try here and there to find new ways to explain or illustrate things, and that has to do with the sterility of language, over-over-use of cliches, etc.. Not wanting to sound like a pretentious ass, I often use filler phrases like "in my opinion", "as I see it" etc.., rather than make too-direct statements of my opinion. Most of what is talked about in here is all-too-predictable. The semantic capital, as it were, is all used up. Things need to be looked at in new ways, and yes I do believe I do that. Or at least try.(I know this will be criticized and use against me, but I’m confident enough in my sincerity about it to let it stand..)

And as for culture, yes, I see culture and the way it changes, grows, and clashes across history as central. Rather the way you seem to see the cartoonish, politically warped worldview embodied by MTV as central. I don’t know why, but you seem so MTV hope, like one of those dumb bitches from The Real World who twangs on as if you’re an authority.. Then, after putting me down, waits for a round of high-fives from all your dumb like-thinking friends. Group think – and unoriginal and stupid at that. Get a life. I don’t and never have claimed superior intelligence, but the way you throw around insults at people you don’t agree with as if they’re stupid implies that you think pretty highly of yourself. And we could pursue what issues lay behind that, etc. etc.. , but that’s not my style. You’re not worth it, so why bother. I’m seeking more worthy enemies..(It feels rather like being a pro soccer player playing against a four year old..)

I fully admit to digressions and, though not logic errors, the occalional logical leap. The mistake I guess is to assume that you can follow.. Now, knowing I’m not the smartest guy ever, I nevertheless know that I’m not all that dumb, or at least feel fairly confident about it. So for you to compare me to a drunken rambling bum, while at the same time criticising the way I deal with being attacked, etc.., is laughable. I’d like to think of a good name to call you at this point, but when I try I only conjure up images of annoying bitches on The Real World. The kind who just need to be fucking slapped. Not that I would ever do that in person, but with words, why not?

One last point: a few people have used the word &quotretentious" when referring to me, which I really do find off the mark. I’ve said it before, but I really feel no need to impress anyone, especially anyone like you. But speaking of pretentiousness, if anyone seems guilty, I might just suggest you. You speak as if your positions, opinions, and reasoning is unassailable, and in a such a smarmy, sit-com kind of way. Anyway, I DIGRESS..

So that’ll do for now. I really hadn’t intended to bother with you, but your attack was just a little over the top. If you don’t like what I say about a particular topic, than join the battle as it were on the grounds at hand. You never do that. You just call people unintelligent.. Which suggests… Nevermind.

And I don’t make that many spelling mistakes.

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A brief perusal of my post has resulted in the finding of two mistakes. There may indeed be more.. Not "more sword", but "my sword"(have fun with the Freudian allusions..) And "in A such a smarmy way.." etc.. I am ever so humbled…

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Wow another pretentious kiss my own ass from positive man.

If any of your posts came across a fraction as brilliant as you think they do, you’d be the best poster here.

As it stands, you blather on and on, informing none, entertaining none,doing nothing but showing off to yourself.

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Hope, Sick, Syd and Vera, why do you bother? As you all said, we can all see through his bullshit, so why give him a soapbox?

I’m just can’t wait to what happens to him when his roll of word-of-the-day toilet paper runs out.

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quote:
Hope, Sick, Syd and Vera, why do you bother? As you all said, we can all see through his bullshit, so why give him a soapbox?

I’m just can’t wait to what happens to him when his roll of word-of-the-day toilet paper runs out.

Well, I’m not naive enough to think that I can change everyone’s mind but I figure that if I can do my best to help people see things from where I am coming from, it might help expand their worldview to something that I believe is healthier and better for the country, etc.

I’m not saying I am elite or my position is what people should look to achieve…only that I am acting upon my own beliefs and worldview to help people explore their own and at least mine, if they’re willing to take the time to listen.

So I take the time to listen to them.

I think most people are intelligent enough to, EVENTUALLY, see some rats where I think they are and I am definitely intelligent enough to glean insight from the points of view of others.

It can be masochistic at times but I enjoy it.

Of course, I’m nodding my head to Sick’s music rec EUPHRATES—intelligent and angry Iraqi/Canadian rap as I do the day to day…

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Back to the topic being discussed earlier…

There is a political movement to set up a Caliphate-a pan Muslim state across the Middle East and beyond. This is called for under Islamic/Sharia law and is not a new idea at all.

The ideology has, however, become popular again after a period of Arab nationalism, where separate Arab states were set up.

I can understand why Positiveman is concerned about the phenomenon, but I don’t buy the argument that people are becoming suicide bombers or wanting to destroy the west out of resentment for its progress or wealth, if that is the argument he was making.

Jealousy of the west might make it easier to hate it but to simplify the argument to
‘They want to destroy us because of our freedom/democracy’ is absolute bollox, as has been pointed out by Sickboy and others. I mainly hear this simplistic guff from American commentators who underestimate their own citizens’ knowledge of history and politics, or maybe they estimate it just right. If they do, I blame the media, mainly, for dumbing everything down over there.

Osama bin Laden and his followers hate the west (outside of religious teaching) for its interference in their region, going back to when the Ottoman Empire was broken up after World War I, and the colonisation and political re-organisation that followed. They resent the west for installing puppet governments that don’t share their version of Islam.
Israel’s occupation of the Palestinian territories is a continued humiliation for Muslims the world over. Recent meddling in the Middle East led by the US and UK doesn’t help either.
There are a whole bunch of reasons they would want revenge against the west, political and Koran-inspired, and yes, the fact that their societies have stagnated for centuries might cause them bitterness as well, but some problems are as a result of their own cultural development, or lack of.

If it were a case of an Islamic expansion, like the previous one that saw Greece, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, etc etc conquered in the last millennium, I would support military action to stop it, but this current situation, I think, is more of a reaction to western interference.

“Our nation has been tasting this humiliation and contempt for more than eighty years.
Its sons are being killed , its blood is being shed, its holy places are being attacked and it is not being ruled according to what God has decreed”
Osama bin Laden, after 9/11-Straight from the horse’s mouth.

I’m not going to join in the schoolyard bullying of Positiveman, whether or not he agrees with me on the historical context for Islamic extremism against the west. I haven’t seen him lose the rag before, like comparing Hope to one of those annoying MTV ‘Real World’ brain-deads, the kind that deserve a slap. I suppose if you have a bunch of people gang up on you in a debate, you can lose the temper after a while.

I do agree with Positive that the you-know-what will hit the fan if even a small percentage of the millions of Muslims in Europe support the jihad.
In hundreds of years, those populations of Muslims will still be here, still loyal to their religion (and why wouldn’t they be), so this issue could arise again and again in the future.
The shortsighted people who decided to import millions of Muslim people for cheap labour should be taken out and shot. Why would such a religiously, and culturally foreign population ever assimilate into a continent that has fought to keep them from pillaging and sacking it for centuries? We would have preferred Mexicans, you idiots…

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Couple of little points.Vera, I don’t mean to nitpick…
The burqa; I’ve seen plenty of women wear it here in Europe. It’s not only in Taliban ruled societies where they would wear it, though many women in the more liberal Islamic countries do wear western clothes. I see women wearing head to toe black burqas in little backwater villages in Ireland. They look like fucking characters from Star Wars, they’re so out of context here, pardon my French.

Also, on the subject of women going to the Mosque, it’s only the men that go to the Mosque to pray as far as I know. Women aren’t allowed in, just the men. They pray at home.

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I think when a westerner sees a "burqa" they don’t see it in the same context as a Muslim does.

We see only the black all over dress.

The Lonely Planet had a really good episode where Megam McCormick (the sole redeeming thing she has done on the show) went to look at Muslim dresses when she was in Dubai.

She had an interesting conversation with the women who explained there reasons for wearing it (fashion! suprise suprise!) and all the subtleties and different varieties which seem to be ignored because we don’t know what to look for and see it for what it is – fashion as much as religion. Can a man tell the difference between an array of black cocktail dresses? I can’t and the answer goes for the burqa as well.

Sure, a lot wear it out of tradition, many wear it as choice.

Sure it may look out of places in some societies, but that is fashion for you, it isn’t different from any others.

I’m sure the Irish national dress, the raincoat, would look pretty unusual in a Muslim society!