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Veracocha
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Phil, I hear what you’re saying. At least you take the time to articulate your thoughts in a way that’s understandable. I think Positive does too much shooting from the hip with little forethought.

I dunno.

In any case, when I say ‘burqa’ and only Afghanistan (and even there not universally) I mean it in the Afghan sense of the Afghan word. You’re right that there are women who wear full coverings but I’m not sure ‘burqa’ is the same thing. For one difference, with the burqa you can’t even see eyes. Many urbanizing ruralites who do still wear the full covering still leave the eyes out although in a horse blinder kind of way (women who do this are a MAJOR driving hazard as they don’t look and can’t easily look before changing directions. An interesting debate I read in a Kuwaiti paper a while back).

So yeah, there are conservative Muslims everywhere although they’re not representative in the way that P-man tends to make them out to be.

As for Muslims in Europe, undoubtedly some of them support the jihad mindset but the vast majority obviously don’t. Now, are Europeans going to start marginalizing them further to antagonize and possibly elicit such support…who knows. As it stands, your ‘if’ is the key and right now there’s no reason to go pontificating about how the situation in Europe is on the verge of mass chaos. (not that you are doing that).

As for women going to mosque.

Most mosques, if not all, have separate prayer areas for men and women so they do both indeed pray in the mosque. You are correct in that some hardline Salafis think that the woman’s place is in the home and they can pray there (not too different from others in that respect eh?) but from my experience, which is pretty broad, women go to the mosque and pray. Hell, some mosques are so progressive that women and men pray together! It’s true! I’m only being slightly sarcastic as some people leave very little room for the non-hardline, non-Salafi, non-terrorizing Muslims in the world in favor of a very ignorant and reductionist (Islamic) worldview.

Again, not that you are doing that, I’m just mentioning the phenomenon.

sickboy
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quote:Most mosques, if not all, have separate prayer areas for men and women so they do both indeed pray in the mosque. You are correct in that some hardline Salafis think that the woman’s place is in the home and they can pray there (not too different from others in that respect eh?) but from my experience, which is pretty broad, women go to the mosque and pray.

Wasn’t this traditionally the case in Judaism as well up until recently?

quote:Of course, I’m nodding my head to Sick’s music rec EUPHRATES—intelligent and angry Iraqi/Canadian rap as I do the day to day…

Glad you like it!

Which album have you checked out? I like both of them a lot, but seem to prefer the Stereotypes Icorporated with that funky Aim at Rebuilding on it. Thats such a good grove, but A Bend in the River has a cooler intro!

Veracocha
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I’ve got stereotypes.

There’s really only one song that bothers the fuck out of me and it’s the one with that wailing electronica chick…

Waaa a waaaa a waaaaail
WAAAA A WAAAAAA A WAIIIIL

Love the spanish groove in that other song too.

I’ll have to check out the other album.

Jester
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quote:
Clinton could and would have done it better, would have put a better face on it, as it were..

Ahmmm…. Clinton bombed Iraq as well, but yeah, he would’ve done a hell of a lot better than Bush. No, let me rephrase: He would’ve done less worse.

You obsess too much over that "doing it for Islam" argument. How many crimes have christians commited "in the name of God?" The holy war, KKK, etc. Would it be fair to categorize christianity as an evil religion based on what a few cookoo’s have done over the centuries?

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quote:

Now here’s where simpletons like Hope will butt in and say "Like duh, we bombed Iraq!" It’s not that simple.. Iraq is a pathetic excuse, a false facade for a hatred and resentment that was already there(to remind you once again, 9/11 happened before..)

I still fail to see the correlation between 9/11 and bombing Iraq. Would you care to exlain?

Syd Barrett
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quote:
quote:
Clinton could and would have done it better, would have put a better face on it, as it were..

Ahmmm…. Clinton bombed Iraq as well, but yeah, he would’ve done a hell of a lot better than Bush. No, let me rephrase: He would’ve done less worse.

You obsess too much over that "doing it for Islam" argument. How many crimes have christians commited "in the name of God?" The holy war, KKK, etc. Would it be fair to categorize christianity as an evil religion based on what a few cookoo’s have done over the centuries?

Put a number to it. Add up the dead in ALL countries(yep, incl. the New World) done by christians, against other christians(but of different sects), and against non-christians(following attempts to MAKE them christian) using the mass death methods of bombs, bullets, musket pellets, arrows, swords, lances, etc. Yeah, I think that christianity wins the award for most blood on the hands of history.

And, if I offend any christians in here…………………….

……forgive me.

sickboy
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About what vera and I are talking about :

Euphrates is an Iraqi group that emigrated to Canada from Iraq via the UAE.

And they some how managed to become a great hip hop group and members of Canadian society (I think Canada’s cultural mosaic (official term) is one, if not the most inclusive societies in the world), and while sometimes political they also know how to make good non political stuff as well.

What is the point some will scoff?

Well, they represent an awful lot of people just like them with similar backgrounds. So often I read here how they dont fit in, they hate our society, etc. yet here is a perfect example that that isn’t always the case.

It is much easier not to look for examples that buck your beliefs than to challenge them.

Syd Barrett
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quote:
Hope, Sick, Syd and Vera, why do you bother? As you all said, we can all see through his bullshit, so why give him a soapbox?

‘cause some of us like to eat McDonald’s from time to time.

Phil Hendrie Fan
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Someone in Turkey told me that only the men go to the Mosque to pray, but I’m no expert on Islam, so what you said, Vera, could well be the case.

The burqa does look out of place in a rural Irish setting/village, culturally out of place.
Howandever, I don’t mind the benign customs and dress of Middle Easterners and Arabs, or of any culture. It’s none of my business unless it’s right on my doorstep.

From previous posts, people know that I think sticking all these different cultures together is an ill-thought out experiment that has often led to strife, like in the Balkans, Northern Ireland, Iraq (and African countries where colonoial powers redrew borders and created artificial nations of warring tribes). But anyway, we’ve been over this old chestnut here before.

Tomorrow is the 60th anniversary of the Hiroshima bombing. I’ll eat my hat if Osama bin Laden, or any rag-tag (I did not say or mean rag-head) group of extremists set off a nuclear device in any US city.

If it did happen, I would expect the Pentagon to use such an attack as a pretext to attack Tehran, as the sabre rattlers might like.
The US couldn’t afford the ground troops, but the Pentagon has been war-gaming nuclear strikes on Tehran and other Iranian targets.

Hopefully it’s all what-if talk, like the way in the 80s people talked about nuclear winters and Cold War scenarios…
At least, I hope it is.

Veracocha
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Phil, I’m not a huge fan of the Washington Times but this is a decent article that highlights some of the questions coming up from women in Islam nowadays…

http://washingtontim…

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Interesting article, Vera.
I couldn’t see a feminist revolution changing Islam, unless it it came from Muslim women living in the west-I think tradition would prohibit it in the Middle East, Pakistan etc, even if some women there want it, but who knows.
I wouldn’t be so arrogant as to say they should have women in their Mosques or change the traditions of their societies.
I think they should be left to get on with it, unless of course these traditions cause difficulties when they move over here, in which case it’s not such a faraway, abstract argument.
Some practices, like stoning, female circumcision (more in African Islam I think) and honour killings can’t be tolerated here. But centuries old traditions are hard to abandon, especially when they’re tied up with religious allegiances.
(PS. Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I do know that stoning etc are not common practice among western-living Muslims, but they are part and parcel of everyday life in many parts of the Muslim world).
Maybe they do need a feminist revolution. Could they please take some of ours?

Veracocha
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quote:
Interesting article, Vera.
I couldn’t see a feminist revolution changing Islam, unless it it came from Muslim women living in the west-I think tradition would prohibit it in the Middle East, Pakistan etc, even if some women there want it, but who knows.

Assuming that the Middle East is only full of traditional people who don’t think progressively and would never accept any change of any kind, especially for women. (not true of course)

quote:
I wouldn’t be so arrogant as to say they should have women in their Mosques or change the traditions of their societies.
I think they should be left to get on with it, unless of course these traditions cause difficulties when they move over here, in which case it’s not such a faraway, abstract argument.

Well, in the US anyway, we are the land of alleged religious freedom, etc. People call it multiculturalism or they blame our immigration policies but what it really boils down to is that they can’t stand what this nation was founded upon and would rather have a nation that adheres strictly to their interpretation of the world.

Luckily this hasn’t happened although they are trying very hard to get it done.

That being said, I think that people preaching violence and death against Americans, IN America, should be dealt with. How they are dealt with is another thing altogether and a very sticky matter. I would also argue that dealing with that type of person is effective only in removing a part of the problem. In other words, terrorists who want to kill us, like those who carried out 9/11, have long since abandoned anti-US rhetoric, strict Islamic lives, etc. The ‘profile’ doesn’t fit them and that is why they have been pretty successful.

So the situation gets stickier.

quote:
Some practices, like stoning, female circumcision (more in African Islam I think) and honour killings can’t be tolerated here. But centuries old traditions are hard to abandon, especially when they’re tied up with religious allegiances.

FGM is definitely an issue to be dealt with but I don’t think westerners need to worry too much about it happening ‘here’. As for honor killings, that is already a pretty ruralite phenomenon and is against the law in most Islamic countries (Pakistan for example). There are urban instances but overwhelmingly this is due to urbanization and not some radicalization of the urban middle/lower classes.

quote:
(PS. Before anyone gets the wrong idea, I do know that stoning etc are not common practice among western-living Muslims, but they are part and parcel of everyday life in many parts of the Muslim world).
Maybe they do need a feminist revolution. Could they please take some of ours?

Taking some of ours is not going to help them. Muslim women need to do things on their terms. There is a lot of literature out there about how western feminism has often ran into some major problems when trying to dictate to Islam what their women should be doing. It’s hard for westerners to look at a woman wearing a scarf on her head as being a women’s lib type but that is in fact the case.

There is a growing feminist revolution and they are gaining a lot of male support as well.

Google em.

Russ
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It’s quite amusing to read the ad-hominem, gang-rape attacks on the rhetoric of people like pos-man from the lefties in this group.

You’re like roosters picking at an open wound – with your own sick, seeping, syphilitic sores; rabid minds hurling stones at dissenters from your group-think.

Yeah, Cocha copies and pastes his opponents’ points as a sort of visual mark of intellectual honesty, a badge of wisdom for us to marvel at, but this is all deception; when he tries this with well-conceived opposition, his response usually misses or avoids the main thrust of the opponent, and he then rambles inappropriately. But that doesn’t bother you self-appointed gadflies, who would critique pos-man on his SPELLING!!

Which of you pos-man-slammers slammed Cocha for this sentence? ::

quote:There is a lot of literature out there about how western feminism has often ran into some major problems when trying to dictate to Islam what their women should be doing.

I mean, Cocha writes so friggin much that he’s bound to write stuff like this. I’m not bringing this up to slam Cocha, but only to encourage you blatant hypocrites to be a little less obvious in your own attacks on those who might disagree with you politically.

Probably a waste of my time, eh?

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You seem tense. Are you tense Russ? Don’t be tense.

quote:It’s quite amusing to read the ad-hominem, gang-rape attacks on the rhetoric of people like pos-man from the lefties in this group.

You’re like roosters picking at an open wound – with your own sick, seeping, syphilitic sores; rabid minds hurling stones at dissenters from your group-think.

That is amusing, but I feel that you are giving me to much credit. I am far more immature and petty than that. My diatribes are based on perceived boorishness, a lack of humour and wanton pretension.

Fuck if I even know what he is saying, I gloss over his posts because he makes it so hard to read (I could of course, I just dont care enough, besides every post is the same) that I just don’t care. You fall into this category as well.

I think that is part of the problem. All 3 of us are in academia, we all teach, yet of the three, you two are always blowing yourself out of proportion (I do this too, but I think all but 3 or 4 people can see right through my shit, it is so obvious), talking big, condescending others, trying to masturbate yourself by being what some have called the "dessicated scholar."

What is the "dessicated scholar" you ask? Hoff called it a person who is "writing pompous and pretentious papers that no one can understand, rather than working for the enlightenment of others."

I know, I sure as hell don’t want to sound like you guys, it scares me. Sure, I don’t know a hell of a lot about you guys, but I hope to hell your ET personas and classroom personas are a lot different, because our views on being a good educator would be vastly different. I’m curious how both of you got into education anyhow? Did you guys study pedagogy?

I hope I never "lose my smile" like you guys have, and you know what, I think I never will.

Toodles Russ!

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Well, sick, you didn’t have to PROVE my point about your ad hominem tendencies.

And this comment does speak to the intolerance of difference among many educators today:

quote:I know, I sure as hell don’t want to sound like you guys, it scares me. Sure, I don’t know a hell of a lot about you guys, but I hope to hell your ET personas and classroom personas are a lot different, because our views on being a good educator would be vastly different. I’m curious how both of you got into education anyhow? Did you guys study pedagogy?

Yes, how could we be different from you and still be educators?

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quote:
It’s quite amusing to read the ad-hominem, gang-rape attacks on the rhetoric of people like pos-man from the lefties in this group.

I try to get pos-man to articulate his arguments but he won’t. At least he won’t do it in a way that clearly shows what he is trying to say. I also tend to attack his arguments instead of him.

quote:
You’re like roosters picking at an open wound – with your own sick, seeping, syphilitic sores; rabid minds hurling stones at dissenters from your group-think.

Hypocrite?

quote:
Yeah, Cocha copies and pastes his opponents’ points as a sort of visual mark of intellectual honesty, a badge of wisdom for us to marvel at, but this is all deception; when he tries this with well-conceived opposition, his response usually misses or avoids the main thrust of the opponent, and he then rambles inappropriately. But that doesn’t bother you self-appointed gadflies, who would critique pos-man on his SPELLING!!

Huh? Copying things so I keep my statements in context is a badge of wisdom and intellectual honesty?

Really, I just do it for clarity. As much as can be attained in this medium anyway.

Interesting read on that though…

quote:
Which of you pos-man-slammers slammed Cocha for this sentence? ::

quote:There is a lot of literature out there about how western feminism has often ran into some major problems when trying to dictate to Islam what their women should be doing.

What’s wrong with it? I can cite the literature if you want.

quote:
I mean, Cocha writes so friggin much that he’s bound to write stuff like this. I’m not bringing this up to slam Cocha, but only to encourage you blatant hypocrites to be a little less obvious in your own attacks on those who might disagree with you politically.

Probably a waste of my time, eh?

I agree that there’s no reason to ad hominem when people disagree with you. I think a lot of people confuse attacks on their arguments as directly against them though…myself included in some instances.

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quote: Well, sick, you didn’t have to PROVE my point about your ad hominem tendencies.

Well, thats what I was already doing, so I just widened the net, as it was applicable as well. Call it what you want, you do a lot of it yourself.

quote:And this comment does speak to the intolerance of difference among many educators today

I agree there is a lot if intolerance amongst educators, a shame I am intolerant to those who are condescending, morally superior, use their perceived intelligence to make themselves seem superior and lacka sense of humour.

The good news is, in Canada that is protected by unions, so I will have to deal with that later in my career.

As for me asking whether you guys studied pedagogy, I apologize if I made that sound insulting or rude, I was just wondering. I still have a lot of my enthusiasm and idealism that I first had that encouraged me to first go into it, I wondered why you guys seem to have developed this disdain and cynicicsm?

quote:Yes, how could we be different from you and still be educators?

Drama queen.

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quote:
It’s quite amusing to read the ad-hominem, gang-rape attacks on the rhetoric of people like pos-man from the lefties in this group.

You’re like roosters picking at an open wound – with your own sick, seeping, syphilitic sores; rabid minds hurling stones at dissenters from your group-think.

Yeah, Cocha copies and pastes his opponents’ points as a sort of visual mark of intellectual honesty, a badge of wisdom for us to marvel at, but this is all deception; when he tries this with well-conceived opposition, his response usually misses or avoids the main thrust of the opponent, and he then rambles inappropriately. But that doesn’t bother you self-appointed gadflies, who would critique pos-man on his SPELLING!!

Which of you pos-man-slammers slammed Cocha for this sentence? ::

quote:There is a lot of literature out there about how western feminism has often ran into some major problems when trying to dictate to Islam what their women should be doing.

I mean, Cocha writes so friggin much that he’s bound to write stuff like this. I’m not bringing this up to slam Cocha, but only to encourage you blatant hypocrites to be a little less obvious in your own attacks on those who might disagree with you politically.

Probably a waste of my time, eh?

Actually, jboy was a lousy speller.