travel advice & savings
 
SAVE on RAIL PASSES LOWEST PRICES / FREE SHIPPING on orders over $449!
Now use the Trip Planner to:
  • Find and Buy Rail Passes
  • Find and Book Hostels
Already know which Rail Pass you need?
Click here and buy now!
Special Eurotrip Member Savings!
89 replies
racist Mexican stamps
Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

Hey Jester, how are Mexicans reacting to America’s reaction? It seems like they don’t understand that that sort of thing is extremely offensive on the other side of the border. Maybe it seems like innocent humor down there, but over here people have ended up dead over this type of imagery.

Jester
Jester's profile picture
Moderator
ModeratorModeratorModeratorModeratorModerator
Eurotrip Points: 652
Member: 1032
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 9 weeks ago.

We’re not reacting. Memin Pinguin is a very old and famous comic book, and a very innocent one. It was read by many generations and is still being published after decades. So, drawing a comic book about a black kid is racist? And I guess buying and reading the comics is racist as well, so next time I see a US post stamp depicting George Washington, I’ll take it as racism as well.

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

It’s not that it’s a black kid. Has nothing to do with that. But the way the imagery is portrayed has extremely racist origins. Look at this for example:
[url=‘http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories__Narratives__Documen/Visualizing_Otherness_Set_1/Visualizing_Otherness_III_Set_/visualizing_otherness_iii_set_1.html’]link[/url]

Images portraying people of African descent as having exaggerated lips and tar black skin with bones through their noses. That Pinguin character had it’s origins here from a character called "Sambo" which was used to dehumanize blacks. So it comes as quite a shock that some nations are embracing it in such a way and see no harm in it. It would be like Americans making a stamp portraying Mexicans as lazy, dirty, wearing sombreras while sitting under a tree drunk of tequila then thinking it’s complete innocent. If we put [url=‘http://aztlan.net/frito.gif’]this figure[/url] on a US stamp, you can’t tell me that Mexicans wouldn’t be offended.

Another thing, the reason these images open such raw emotions in black Americans is because they were used as a form of propaganda in the slavery era. It society at large could be brainwashed into thinking people of African descent were subhuman, it would make slavery socially acceptable. So these images weren’t simply jokes, but a way of indoctinating people into accepting black slavery. These images also got a revival with the rise of the Ku Klux Klan and all the their terrorist murders of blacks. That’s why it’s simply astounding(from our perspective) that people have such a dismissive attitude in Latin America of such imagery. I realize it’s all subject and that the context it is used in Mexico may be entirely different, but it’s important that they understand from our perspective. A black American reacts to that sambo image the exact same way a Jew reacts to a swastika.

Jester
Jester's profile picture
Moderator
ModeratorModeratorModeratorModeratorModerator
Eurotrip Points: 652
Member: 1032
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 9 weeks ago.

I’m not going to write 40 lines justifying our way of thinking because we would always disagree due to the place we live in, the circumstances, the situations and education. I’ll only say I feel sorry you see racism in every corner, even if there isn’t any.

One of the tricks about hurting depends pretty much on who is hurting. Mexico had nothing to do in your history of slavery. I would understand it better if the germans had a post stamp depicting jews in a not favourable light.

Syd Barrett
Syd Barrett's profile picture
Nomad
NomadNomadNomadNomad
Eurotrip Points: 490
Member: 523
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

Goes to show you that OUR PC and sensitivities do not transcend borders.

What’s offensive to one nation ain’t necessarily so in another. However, I can understand Modulis’ frustration over the images on the stamps: being raised in the US, I believe the images conjure up America’s racist past. I think it’s strange that Mexico, if indeed this is the case, would be issuing these on their federal postage. Then again, we issue U.S. postage with images of Frankenstein, The Mummy, and Elvis. So, go figure!

Jake the Peg
Jake the Peg's profile picture
Member
MemberMember
Eurotrip Points: 121
Member: 65
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 5 years 45 weeks ago.

What the hell is wrong with little black sambo, I had one as a kid, get a grip modullis you blacks need to pull your heads out of your arse. I personally find actionman, barbie, cindy, cabbage patch kids insulting, racist and degrading towards white people but I don’t get my undies in a twist about it.

Why would you be insulted, it’s not a US stamp it’s Mexican, team america can’t tell the rest of the world what they can or can’t have on a friggin stamp. This is another case of US PC bullshit going nuts.

jboy
jboy's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1531
Member: 113
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 6 years 16 weeks ago.

Here in the UK, they made a Jam company take a Gollywog character off it’s jars because it was deemed racist.

How it’s reflective of sub human status is beyond me, degrading to black people ?? Well caricatures tend to be like that.. if black people want to be beyond parody or comic ridicule thhen they’ll never be equals.

I call it residual racism, it’s generated within the Black community and will always keep them down… there’s bigger real racial issues to be tackled than this crap.

Modulis, Jester made a very good point, you should try to travel more.

Anyway, the Gollywog is a relevent image of the modern African-American / Carribean… the gawdy dress and all… just look at Outkast…. Blacks are protraying THEMSELVES as Gollywogs.

Political Correctness is the greatest weapon of the insidious racists!

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

Syd, good to see that you’re the only one on this thread that understands the issue.

As to Jake’s comments about why should anyone outside of Mexico be offended. Well, it’s a caricature of me that they’re putting on the damn stamp, so my opinion of it should be valid.

And don’t even try to give me this crap about just being PC, you guys know me by now, I’m the main one bashing PC liberals around here, but even I have to draw the line somewhere.

Atomic
Atomic's profile picture
Traveler
TravelerTravelerTraveler
Eurotrip Points: 300
Member: 50
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

Why is it that Syd is the "only one on this thread that understands the issue"? Is it because Syd is the only who agrees with you?

I think the stamps are hilarious and appreciate the history behind them. Maybe it’s time to grow up and get a sense of humour instead of crying "RACISM!" every time someone/another country/culture does something that goes against your American sensibilities. Maybe you should be a bit more culturally aware, sensitive, etc and stop trying to apply your values on other cultures.

Any idea where I can order these stamps online?

Jester
Jester's profile picture
Moderator
ModeratorModeratorModeratorModeratorModerator
Eurotrip Points: 652
Member: 1032
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 9 weeks ago.

Next thing we know, we’ll be taking Aunt Jemima off the pancake business…

So, what about japanese anime?? Is it racism towards the white people, or is it the japanese depicting their traumas for not having big eyes and long legs??

What about cartoons in the US where the chinese have that dish looking hat and shut eyes?? Or spanish as matadores?? French as snoby painters and mexicans like the one you showed?? I have seen loads of those, and you don’t see our panties going yo-yo.

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.


quote:
I think the stamps are hilarious

Of course it’s hilarious when it’s some other group being displayed grotesquely. Maybe you should learn some empathy.

quote:
and appreciate the history behind them.

If you actually knew the history behind that sambo character which you find so funny, you wouldn’t be defending it.

quote:
Maybe it’s time to grow up and get a sense of humour instead of crying "RACISM!"

I do have a sense of humor, but everything ain’t funny.

quote:
every time someone/another country/culture does something that goes against your American sensibilities. Maybe you should be a bit more culturally aware, sensitive, etc and stop trying to apply your values on other cultures.

Couldn’t you have taken that last sentence and applied it to Mexico? If they were being more culturally aware and sensitive, they may have realized that it’s a slap in the face to millions of people. Seems like you only want the "cultural sensitivity" to go in one direction. To be honest though, I’m not bent out of shape on this issue, just brought it up because it’s an interesting news item. They can do whatever they want in that 3rd world cleptocracy down there. I’m more concerned about the millions of Mexicans illegals pouring across the border than I am of the stamp.

quote:
Any idea where I can order these stamps online?

www.kkk.com probably carries them.

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

quote:
Next thing we know, we’ll be taking Aunt Jemima off the pancake business…

Aunt Jemima doesn’t have her features exagerrated to make her look like an ape or some shit like that sambo character does. Not even a fair analogy. I don’t think the controversy is that such a thing exists, everybody knows that there are comics and dolls and collectibles that have this grotesque black caricature, I think what shocked people is that it was given the legitimacy of being placed on the stamp of a major nation. Yes, it’s your country and you can put whatever you want on a stamp, but at the same time, you are our neighbors. There is some cross-pollination of cultures here, with the US being more Latinized with foods, languages printed in spanish everywhere, popular music, actresses, politicians like Alberto Gonzalez and such, but you will also get some of our culture as well, such as the (what you see as)acute sensitivity to racial matters that we have here and a more politically correct culture seeping that way.

quote:
So, what about japanese anime?? Is it racism towards the white people, or is it the japanese depicting their traumas for not having big eyes and long legs??

Not sure what you mean here. I wasn’t aware that Anime characters were supposed to be Caucasions. They just seem to be funny looking people with huge eyes and odd colored hair.

quote:
What about cartoons in the US where the chinese have that dish looking hat and shut eyes??

Never seen one, but if there was, it’d probably be pulled off the air.

quote:
Or spanish as matadores?? French as snoby painters and mexicans like the one you showed?? I have seen loads of those, and you don’t see our panties going yo-yo.

The Mexicans up here make a lot of noise about that sort of thing. I don’t know about down there.

jboy
jboy's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1531
Member: 113
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 6 years 16 weeks ago.

I’m going to say something really controversial here:

Michael Jackson was aquitted of child molestation charges because he USED to be BLACK & he USED to be RICH.

Go figure.

I am Racist, I hate French Canadians, their arrogance, their accents, their crummy dress YET nobody has anyoneever ATTACKED me on it? so Modulis, why the double standards ??? You sit back and let a lot wash over the decks without a word so it’s inevitable that you’re going to be held to task on this jump-up.

These stamps in my eyes are an irrelevence, not worth a second thought in the grand scheme of things, banning them is like doing away with Concentration camp memorials and denying the existance of historical institutionalized racial abusing comdey/culture.

Here in the UK, the BBC used toi fund and show comdey, berrating the Black people, Jim Davidson stand up, Af Garnet sit com… it’s there and they don’t show it anymore, maybe they should as a lesson, the jokes no longer funny, the humour pathetic… I don’t understand the head-in-the-sand apporach of P.C

Is skin colour the exclusive de-facto (and lack of penial skin for Jews for that matter) in discrimination and nothing else matters ??

I wonder how often Modulis has laughed at the aforementioned Jester examples of others ?? I’m Scottish and I laugh at ours, even though there was a history of bloodshed and violence by the English who created them.

Someone calls me a ‘sweaty sock’ it brings a smile to my face, same with racism,. if you can’t rise above it, neither will the perpetrators.

You have to move on Modulis to the real issues, not the pretend ones!

Atomic
Atomic's profile picture
Traveler
TravelerTravelerTraveler
Eurotrip Points: 300
Member: 50
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

quote:www.kkk.com probably carries them.

Hi Moddy, I tried the site you suggested but it didn’t work. I found them on eBay (for anyone else that’s interested!) Thanks anyway!
http://cgi.ebay.com/…

positiveman
positiveman's profile picture
Traveler
TravelerTravelerTraveler
Eurotrip Points: 305
Member: 377
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 4 years 30 weeks ago.

Will this kind of UTTERLY INANE bullshit(I’m referring here to the likes of Modulis and his victim-obsessed mentality) ever stop? We’ve come to arguing over Mexican stamps..

Kierans
Kierans's profile picture
Member
MemberMember
Eurotrip Points: 143
Member: 134
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 3 years 26 weeks ago.

Let the yanks be pissed off by the mexi-stamps …

We all know the widespread unability among americans to view at "foreign" matters from an other perspective than a narrow-minded american context – so who bloody cares what they think ?

Unless, off course, the americans respond the only way they know – sending in som B-52’s to "solve" the problems. (Not an option at present time, though – they’re seemingly occupied bombing afghani women and children )

Veracocha
Veracocha's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1045
Member: 315
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

How many wild and crazy Arabs in the US are portrayed as the protagonist in movies that have roles for Arabs? What about TV?

I mean, so long as we’re griping about sensibilities and perception.

Note: "wild and crazy Arabs" is a clue to the answer.

Veracocha
Veracocha's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1045
Member: 315
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

I forgot to mention that the Army has a "recruiting tool" that is a video game one can play where you (the good guy) kill dark-skinned towel-wearing individuals who look a LOT like the Arab stereotype.

Is that bad taste given that we’re at war with some pissed off Arabs?

Jester
Jester's profile picture
Moderator
ModeratorModeratorModeratorModeratorModerator
Eurotrip Points: 652
Member: 1032
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 9 weeks ago.

I have to disagree, Vera, racism refers specifically to african americans…

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

quote:
I forgot to mention that the Army has a "recruiting tool" that is a video game one can play where you (the good guy) kill dark-skinned towel-wearing individuals who look a LOT like the Arab stereotype.

Is that bad taste given that we’re at war with some pissed off Arabs?

Very bad. Is there anywhere I can see images of this came? I’d be curious.

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

quote:
Will this kind of UTTERLY INANE bullshit(I’m referring here to the likes of Modulis and his victim-obsessed mentality) ever stop? We’ve come to arguing over Mexican stamps..

Sure. If Mexico decides to put swastikas on their stamps too, maybe that’s no big deal either. We should all learn to have a sense of humor about it, right? No biggie, doesn’t matter if people died, were enslaved or dehumanized over this shit that the likes of you find trivial or funny.

good god…

Veracocha
Veracocha's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1045
Member: 315
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

Commentary:

http://www.military….

The Game:

http://www.americasa…

“Media researchers do know that stereotypical portrayals of people can reinforce the racist or sexist ideas of players,” says Huntemann. “So, if a terrorism video game uses Arab people as the enemy, this may reinforce the idea that all Arabs are terrorists. Also, video games rarely depict the real-life psychological consequences of violence. As a result, media researchers have found some evidence that players become desensitized to depictions of violence.”

http://www.ithaca.ed…

Jester
Jester's profile picture
Moderator
ModeratorModeratorModeratorModeratorModerator
Eurotrip Points: 652
Member: 1032
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 9 weeks ago.

quote:
Sure. If Mexico decides to put swastikas on their stamps too, maybe that’s no big deal either. We should all learn to have a sense of humor about it, right? No biggie, doesn’t matter if people died, were enslaved or dehumanized over this shit that the likes of you find trivial or funny.

good god…

I fail to see the correlation between the story of a naughty but nice boy and a swastika…

sickboy
sickboy's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1166
Member: 703
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

They just re-released Little Black Sambo in Japan, but its called, Chibi Kuro Sanbo, which means, er, Little Black Sambo.

Here is more

http://japantoday.co…

Syd Barrett
Syd Barrett's profile picture
Nomad
NomadNomadNomadNomad
Eurotrip Points: 490
Member: 523
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

This is all about context, context, and context.

The Brits, Mexicans, and ANYbody else in here simply will not comprehend the subtleties of racism in America, and inherent in these stamps. Even naive, sheltered(or maybe especially them) white American youth understand the taboos of caricatures of black Americans in this country. Just mention "sambo", Steppin’ Fetchit, and the blackface comedy routines of Amos and Andy and you’re likely to rile some normally calm nerves. We have a unique brand of racism in the U.S. that does not explain well to outsiders. Whereas before it was overt, it is now smoothed over.

The fact of the matter is, what everyone ELSE doesn’t see as a big deal about the racist-related caricatures of the stamps is a big deal if YOU’RE the one being caricatured! Because we still haven’t resolved the race relations in this country(only buried them, I believe), many people will be outraged if such displays aren’t followed by dialogue or explanation. People say, "Just get over it!" Of course, that’s always easier when it doesn’t affect you, right?

In light of Vicente Fox’s controversial comment about Mexican immigrants doing the work that blacks used to do(but won’t, anymore) and with the advent of these stamps, I can see why many black Americans(I use that term more as a point of emphasis rather than a category of person) are confused about Mexico’s attitude towards them.

I agree that Arab-Americans, Chinese, and Japanese, et al. have similar historic and racist stereotypes promoted in this country, but none quite as long-term, systematic, and obviously denigrating as those of blacks.

So, folks, think twice about purchasing that quaint little jockeyman for your grandmother’s rose garden. ‘K? ‘K.

Jake the Peg
Jake the Peg's profile picture
Member
MemberMember
Eurotrip Points: 121
Member: 65
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 5 years 45 weeks ago.

quote:
Syd, good to see that you’re the only one on this thread that understands the issue.

As to Jake’s comments about why should anyone outside of Mexico be offended. Well, it’s a caricature of me that they’re putting on the damn stamp, so my opinion of it should be valid.

And don’t even try to give me this crap about just being PC, you guys know me by now, I’m the main one bashing PC liberals around here, but even I have to draw the line somewhere.

If that’s what you look like I’d piss my pants if I saw you walking down the street.

What about Barbie she’s a caricature of a white woman, why is it only a problem is black, brown, yellow etc get insulted, however its always ok when the person being insulted on is white. Where’s our affirmative action group.

Jake the Peg
Jake the Peg's profile picture
Member
MemberMember
Eurotrip Points: 121
Member: 65
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 5 years 45 weeks ago.

quote:
Will this kind of UTTERLY INANE bullshit(I’m referring here to the likes of Modulis and his victim-obsessed mentality) ever stop? We’ve come to arguing over Mexican stamps..

Black people are good at pulling the victim card, just like the jews.

Jake the Peg
Jake the Peg's profile picture
Member
MemberMember
Eurotrip Points: 121
Member: 65
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 5 years 45 weeks ago.

quote:
I have to disagree, Vera, racism refers specifically to african americans…

what the?

Jester
Jester's profile picture
Moderator
ModeratorModeratorModeratorModeratorModerator
Eurotrip Points: 652
Member: 1032
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 9 weeks ago.

You said it, Syd, context. So we understand the context in which people get offended, but what about the context of the character? The comic book?? The reason why it’s on the stamps?

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

quote:
This is all about context, context, and context.

The Brits, Mexicans, and ANYbody else in here simply will not comprehend the subtleties of racism in America, and inherent in these stamps. Even naive, sheltered(or maybe especially them) white American youth understand the taboos of caricatures of black Americans in this country. Just mention "sambo", Steppin’ Fetchit, and the blackface comedy routines of Amos and Andy and you’re likely to rile some normally calm nerves. We have a unique brand of racism in the U.S. that does not explain well to outsiders. Whereas before it was overt, it is now smoothed over.

The fact of the matter is, what everyone ELSE doesn’t see as a big deal about the racist-related caricatures of the stamps is a big deal if YOU’RE the one being caricatured! Because we still haven’t resolved the race relations in this country(only buried them, I believe), many people will be outraged if such displays aren’t followed by dialogue or explanation. People say, "Just get over it!" Of course, that’s always easier when it doesn’t affect you, right?

In light of Vicente Fox’s controversial comment about Mexican immigrants doing the work that blacks used to do(but won’t, anymore) and with the advent of these stamps, I can see why many black Americans(I use that term more as a point of emphasis rather than a category of person) are confused about Mexico’s attitude towards them.

I agree that Arab-Americans, Chinese, and Japanese, et al. have similar historic and racist stereotypes promoted in this country, but none quite as long-term, systematic, and obviously denigrating as those of blacks.

So, folks, think twice about purchasing that quaint little jockeyman for your grandmother’s rose garden. ‘K? ‘K.

Excellent post Syd. You feel where I’m coming from here. People have ended up hanging from trees over this shit, I find nothing cute about it. As for Japanese and Mexicans using these sambo images, I understand that their intention for using it may not be the same as some Klan member in Mississippi, but they should at least be culturally aware of the source of these vile images. I think it’s also no big deal in Mexico, because it’s basically the Spanish blood latinos that control that country, with Indians and the few blacks designated to the bottom of the latter with mestizos being somewhere in between depending on their shade of color. So I think it’s simply convenient to poke fun at dark people down there and nobody cares about it. Not that this doesn’t exist in the US too to some extent, but the difference is that the US has had a counter-racism movement that made it taboo for people to be openly racist. Many countries have not had a counter-racism movement.

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

quote:
quote:
Syd, good to see that you’re the only one on this thread that understands the issue.

As to Jake’s comments about why should anyone outside of Mexico be offended. Well, it’s a caricature of me that they’re putting on the damn stamp, so my opinion of it should be valid.

And don’t even try to give me this crap about just being PC, you guys know me by now, I’m the main one bashing PC liberals around here, but even I have to draw the line somewhere.

If that’s what you look like I’d piss my pants if I saw you walking down the street.

What about Barbie she’s a caricature of a white woman, why is it only a problem is black, brown, yellow etc get insulted, however its always ok when the person being insulted on is white. Where’s our affirmative action group.

So you see no difference between a sambo doll and a barbie doll…. Wow.

Jester
Jester's profile picture
Moderator
ModeratorModeratorModeratorModeratorModerator
Eurotrip Points: 652
Member: 1032
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 9 weeks ago.

Counter racism??? Exactly how is the US countering racism??

Jake the Peg
Jake the Peg's profile picture
Member
MemberMember
Eurotrip Points: 121
Member: 65
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 5 years 45 weeks ago.

quote:
quote:
quote:
Syd, good to see that you’re the only one on this thread that understands the issue.

As to Jake’s comments about why should anyone outside of Mexico be offended. Well, it’s a caricature of me that they’re putting on the damn stamp, so my opinion of it should be valid.

And don’t even try to give me this crap about just being PC, you guys know me by now, I’m the main one bashing PC liberals around here, but even I have to draw the line somewhere.

If that’s what you look like I’d piss my pants if I saw you walking down the street.

What about Barbie she’s a caricature of a white woman, why is it only a problem is black, brown, yellow etc get insulted, however its always ok when the person being insulted on is white. Where’s our affirmative action group.

So you see no difference between a sambo doll and a barbie doll…. Wow.

No none, both are caricatures, both are unrealistic, both are childrens toys, which is all they are toys. It’s no wonder black people will never get ahead if they let little things like this get to them, shows a lack of backbone.

Syd Barrett
Syd Barrett's profile picture
Nomad
NomadNomadNomadNomad
Eurotrip Points: 490
Member: 523
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

quote:
Counter racism??? Exactly how is the US countering racism??

Talking about our civil rights movement in the ’50s and ’60s. Remember a guy named Martin Luther King, Jr?

Jester, you have to realize the context by which these symbols are used. These images are powerful symbols of a bygone era, that may mean nothing to Mexicans there, but even Chicano-Americans can identify with here. Don’t worry about it. Modulis is not accusing you of racism or of defending the supporters of the stamp. However, until you’ve lived some time over here in the States, you will never understand the U.S. brand racism, and all its subtleties.

To quote the great Forrest Gump: "That’s all I got to say ‘bout that."

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

quote:
No none, both are caricatures, both are unrealistic, both are childrens toys, which is all they are toys. It’s no wonder black people will never get ahead if they let little things like this get to them, shows a lack of backbone.

Oh yeah? Then why do whites embrace them if they are so offensive? Whites created Barbie, whites buy them. Why the hell would they make and buy them if they found them offensive? Blacks didn’t create Sambo, blacks don’t manufacture them, and blacks sure as hell don’t buy them. They were made to poke fun at blacks, Barbie was not invented to poke fun at whites. If you don’t understand that, then I give up.

Jester
Jester's profile picture
Moderator
ModeratorModeratorModeratorModeratorModerator
Eurotrip Points: 652
Member: 1032
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 9 weeks ago.

quote:
quote:
Counter racism??? Exactly how is the US countering racism??

Talking about our civil rights movement in the ’50s and ’60s. Remember a guy named Martin Luther King, Jr?

Jester, you have to realize the context by which these symbols are used. These images are powerful symbols of a bygone era, that may mean nothing to Mexicans there, but even Chicano-Americans can identify with here. Don’t worry about it. Modulis is not accusing you of racism or of defending the supporters of the stamp. However, until you’ve lived some time over here in the States, you will never understand the U.S. brand racism, and all its subtleties.

To quote the great Forrest Gump: "That’s all I got to say ‘bout that."

I have lived in the States, Syd, in fact, I have african american family and I understand your point perfectly well. But I think sometimes people need to let go. These horrible things should be remembered so as not to let history repeat itself, but you can’t live with fear and paranoia and seeing enemies where there aren’t. The US is not the only place where there was racism, not is it the only place where you see race crimes. For further notes on that, the example has already been set, the middle east. Slavery is not a unique trademark of the US either, there was slavery in Central and South America, and not only blacks, indians as well.

Of course I think of what my ancestors went through, of course it makes my soul itch, but they did so much to give us our freedom that we should not use that freedom to keep on moaning and living in the past. I want to think this freedom was given to us to make the best of our lives, to pursue happiness, it sounds cheesy, but I rather live my life to the fullest than seeking enemies.

jboy
jboy's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1531
Member: 113
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 6 years 16 weeks ago.

Modulis,

when you start clutching at the Jewish Joker cards of "Swastikas" and "Ethinc Clensing" your argument is usually on it’s last legs.

Syd, I have to totally diagree with your comments that the US has some sort of unique sensitivity aroundut racism and I suggest you get out a bit more, as already stated, I believe this to be a Politicasl Correctness issue… which I believe to be a more insidious facet of racism… those who think racist should speak racist… the US is too concerned with giving itself a pat on the back for tip-toeing over eggshells when in reality, it’s still as racist as it ever was. Last years elections and intimidation of the Nig-Nogs in the south (BTW: it’s just a word) is a sure fire sign… peoples actions speak louder than P.C words and don’t divert your energies into side Sideshow Bob crap, racist America created P.C’ness to hide it’s ugly face

I ain’t beating balck people up, passing them over for jobs, buying a new house if they move next door and so on… if being called Sambo was at the heart of this oh, it would be such an easy problem to fix overnight, it’ ain’t so get over this ‘innane bullshit’!

BTW: thw world (5.5 bilion) is trying to help Africa… the problem isn’t with the colour of your skin, it’s where you’re living… it’s not "Continential Africans" who are the problem but "African-Americans" who are the
issue for the racists!

"Arab" is the "Sambo" of the new millenium!

positiveman
positiveman's profile picture
Traveler
TravelerTravelerTraveler
Eurotrip Points: 305
Member: 377
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 4 years 30 weeks ago.

Two points: one, has it ever occurred to anyone that America’s history with respect to racial problems just might illustrate the perfectly WRONG path? I mean that from the North invading the South over slavery(well, over secession, but that’s another topic..), through Reconstruction up to segregation, the Civil Rights movement and Malcolm X and now this ludicrous nonsense over Mexican stamps. I mean, the Civil War ended ONE HUNDRED FORTY YEARS AGO. The point is, white people – well, at least me – have FREAKING HAD IT with being blamed for blacks’s problems. That’s the first point.

The second point is, as with the Jews, it’s totally natural that blacks play the race/victim card. Because it’s – always – ALL about power. Blacks and Jews both use their victim cards to increase their cultural leverage, and it’s not only sickening and weak, but destructive for culture as a whole. I won’t go here into my typical tantrum about literature on college syllabi, but that’s a small part of what I mean.

I met some German chicks the other night, and because it’s so cool nowadays to be anti-America, they asked if I’d ever done anything bad to black people(I’m from the South)!!.. This was in the context of where’s safe and not safe, etc.. for when they go there next year. So I thought about it, and I have never once punched a black guy, but been punched(jumped, as a teenager) three or four times. I’m not implying my experience proves the rule, but I would suggest that just might reflects i, and not the exception. For every dumb redneck in Mississippi that attacks a black, I’d bet there are like 50 cases of blacks attacking whites, for at least partly racial reasons. But I know that to say that kind of thing leads nowhere.. Basically because I don’t have the specific data to back it up. But even to go looking for it would be construed as a racist act – evidence, by the way, of how even cultural stupidity can override the open and honest search for the truth..

Atomic
Atomic's profile picture
Traveler
TravelerTravelerTraveler
Eurotrip Points: 300
Member: 50
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

Nigger.

jboy
jboy's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 1531
Member: 113
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 6 years 16 weeks ago.

Positiveman is a fucking Cracker !

Russ
Russ's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 652
Member: 88
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 6 years 13 weeks ago.

Some good points made here. America does have a special responsibility to be sensitive about Black imagery. But there are also too many people – black and white – that lend such stuff way too much importance. Words and imagery distract people from core issues. In this country, you can be fired and sued for harrassment just for using insensitive language, as though eliminating one’s non-pc vocabulary changed the person inside. And groups that really do experience real-world discrimination often get way too wrapped up in fights over words, ignoring the real issues that impact their daily lives.

Mexico really is a very race-conscious country. It doesn’t surprise me that they would use such images. But I don’t see what obligation Mexico has to the community of American Blacks.

Jake the Peg
Jake the Peg's profile picture
Member
MemberMember
Eurotrip Points: 121
Member: 65
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 5 years 45 weeks ago.

Lets bring back the barn dance, some cross burning and lynch a few niggers before midnight, that would really give you something to worry about. All this crap over a couple of stamps, Modullis you are a joke, get on with your life and stop pissing about over trivial issues.

tronxz28
tronxz28's profile picture
Member
MemberMember
Eurotrip Points: 59
Member: 1861
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 14 weeks ago.

First of all, it is very clear that a big percentage of the population in the USA still do not understand other countries and do not actually care. This just proves the total ignorance in the USA about Mexico and its culture, past and present.

Nobody in Mexico saw that stamp as offensive. Memin pinguin has been around for decades and it is part of the folklore. It has been such a big surprise here in Mexico that people in the USA are offended by that stamp that it has been in the news and we just dont believe about this big deal that has been done out of this. We actually dont really care. Im very glad to hear that the stamp will continue to circulate.

We are just tired of the USA getting into our matters and we are tired of ur lack of knowledge. What about speedy gonzalez ?

But in any case Im not sure what is the point of the whole argument if on they international wisdom they think that Uruguay is the capital of Paraguay.

I do not why you worry too much about a stamps issued in Mexico when the real problem is still inside your country. There are still a lot of racist groups and segregation, but not only for blacks.

Why do u always want to be the protagonist? The people there in the USA gave to the character all that negative imagine. Just a projection of traumas.

If we want to discuss stupid things and traumas then why we dont discuss all the territory that the USA stole from Mexico? You worry about illegal inmigration and we worry for all the people that die crossing to the USA and to the racism of civilian groups in the border bewteen Mexico and the USA and to all the real aggresions that Mexicans receive in the USA. Not just a stamp.

Kierans
Kierans's profile picture
Member
MemberMember
Eurotrip Points: 143
Member: 134
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 3 years 26 weeks ago.

It’s much easier focusing on imaginary problems abroad (even though misunderstood or irrelevant) than solving the basic problems at home.

Just keep on focusing Modulis – this is REALLY a big problem …

petitepaulette
petitepaulette's profile picture
Member
MemberMember
Eurotrip Points: 68
Member: 490
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.


quote:because it’s basically the Spanish blood latinos that control that country. I think it’s simply convenient to poke fun at dark people down there and nobody cares about it

Really? One of the most famous presidents in Mexico’s history, Benito Juarez, was in fact indigenous. How many Native American presidents has the US had? Or Black, or Jewish for that matter. I know after Fox’s (probably in office because he is not PRI)statements this stamp doesn’t help, and I understand what you say about the connotations the Sambo image brings – but to say an entire country mocks people of a different color is a bit of a huge leap.

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

quote:
First of all, it is very clear that a big percentage of the population in the USA still do not understand other countries and do not actually care.

And I guess that isn’t true for Mexico right?

quote: This just proves the total ignorance in the USA about Mexico and its culture, past and present.

And obvious ignorance on the part of Mexico of where that image originated. Maybe they ought to try and understand the outside world.

quote:
Nobody in Mexico saw that stamp as offensive.

Of course not! How many people of African descent are in Mexico?

quote:
Memin pinguin has been around for decades and it is part of the folklore. It has been such a big surprise here in Mexico that people in the USA are offended by that stamp that it has been in the news and we just dont believe about this big deal that has been done out of this. We actually dont really care. Im very glad to hear that the stamp will continue to circulate.

We are just tired of the USA getting into our matters and we are tired of ur lack of knowledge.

Well your president seems to want to meddle in our matters, so don’t talk too much. Telling us that we must hand out drivers licenses and take in illegal aliens from Mexico, since he doesn’t want to take care of them. He’s up here at least once a month pushing for a guest worker program which Americans overhwhelmingly oppose.

quote: What about speedy gonzalez ?

Is speedy gonzalez on a US stamp?

quote:
But in any case Im not sure what is the point of the whole argument if on they international wisdom they think that Uruguay is the capital of Paraguay.

Who is "they"? Generalizing a bit aren’t you?

quote:
Why do u always want to be the protagonist? The people there in the USA gave to the character all that negative imagine. Just a projection of traumas.

We know where the image comes from. And if you do as well, and understand the context in which it was created, I don’t know why you support it.

quote:
If we want to discuss stupid things and traumas then why we dont discuss all the territory that the USA stole from Mexico?

Yeah, the US stole territory, which Mexico itself stole from Chumash Indians. Nice try.

quote:
You worry about illegal inmigration and we worry for all the people that die crossing to the USA and to the racism of civilian groups in the border bewteen Mexico and the USA and to all the real aggresions that Mexicans receive in the USA. Not just a stamp.

If your government was all that worried about the people risking their lives crossing here, they’d be doing something for them. Their policy is to send them here because they don’t want to deal them. And I don’t know why you consider defending our border to be "racist". I guess it’s also racist that you guys defend your own southern border from Central American illegals.

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

quote:

Jester, you have to realize the context by which these symbols are used. These images are powerful symbols of a bygone era, that may mean nothing to Mexicans there, but even Chicano-Americans can identify with here.

Syd, you are spot on. I got in a conversation over the weekend with some Mexican friends, and they thought the stamps are offensive. They feel that it’s just a lingering Spanish/colonial mindset that pervades Latin-America that makes this sort of thing still acceptable. Because they were born and educated in the US, they are simply more aware of these things. It may not be any big deal in Mexico, but that’s the reason why their brownest people live in squalor while the Spanish Mexicans rule the country and economy.

Syd Barrett
Syd Barrett's profile picture
Nomad
NomadNomadNomadNomad
Eurotrip Points: 490
Member: 523
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

quote:
quote:
quote:
Counter racism??? Exactly how is the US countering racism??

Talking about our civil rights movement in the ’50s and ’60s. Remember a guy named Martin Luther King, Jr?

Jester, you have to realize the context by which these symbols are used. These images are powerful symbols of a bygone era, that may mean nothing to Mexicans there, but even Chicano-Americans can identify with here. Don’t worry about it. Modulis is not accusing you of racism or of defending the supporters of the stamp. However, until you’ve lived some time over here in the States, you will never understand the U.S. brand racism, and all its subtleties.

To quote the great Forrest Gump: "That’s all I got to say ‘bout that."

I have lived in the States, Syd, in fact, I have african american family and I understand your point perfectly well. But I think sometimes people need to let go. These horrible things should be remembered so as not to let history repeat itself, but you can’t live with fear and paranoia and seeing enemies where there aren’t. The US is not the only place where there was racism, not is it the only place where you see race crimes. For further notes on that, the example has already been set, the middle east. Slavery is not a unique trademark of the US either, there was slavery in Central and South America, and not only blacks, indians as well.

Of course I think of what my ancestors went through, of course it makes my soul itch, but they did so much to give us our freedom that we should not use that freedom to keep on moaning and living in the past. I want to think this freedom was given to us to make the best of our lives, to pursue happiness, it sounds cheesy, but I rather live my life to the fullest than seeking enemies.

I’m going to go out on a limb here.

I’d like you to know, Jester, that I’m not one of these guys going around and waiting for an alleged racist comment or incident to occur. I also keep an open mind about things. I can even say that there are aspects of black culture in the U.S. that I don’t particularly care for(much of modern rap and hip hop). But, what I won’t do is collectively categorize ALL black Americans into one heap. That simply isn’t fair or realistic.

However, even YOU must admit(deep down in your heart) that if you were to come home and tell your folks that you are marrying a black man, they probably wouldn’t be too pleased. Am I right? You may be more open-minded, but the older generation isn’t(or not anymore).

Ok, here’s another one. A few years back, a few cities in the southern states were going to the courts in efforts to keep the Confederate flag flying high over their city hall. What does the Confederate flag symbolize for you? Probably nothing, right? Well, to me, it symbolizes redneck culture at its ugliest, segregation, and violence. It’s just a flag, right? But why do I have this reaction to it? I wasn’t persecuted by those who fought for it. I haven’t even brought up the historical ties to slavery this flag is so closely associated with. When should the jews stop feeling uneasy when they see a nazi swastika?

You see, Jester, I appreciate the freedoms that my and others’ ancestors fought and died for. All the more reason to stand up and speak out when I see something I don’t like. That’s not ‘moaning and living in the past’. It’s dealing with what hasn’t fully been resolved. But, hey, that’s just me. What the hell do I know?

jboy, racism in America IS different than in other countries, including the UK and even Latin America. I know that because I have been to those places. You need to live in the States(which, from what I understand, you’ll never lower yourself to do. ) to fully comprehend the complexities of modern racism here. Like I wrote Jester, I’m not one of these guys that looks for anything that can be construed as racist. And, I’m also not one of these types that backs up everything black Americans do, believe, or support. But, when I see red flag such as this stupid image on a stamp, it begs me to ask the questions: Why did they use this caricature for a stamp? What was their purpose?

Nice post, Russ. Lean, but succinct.

Jester
Jester's profile picture
Moderator
ModeratorModeratorModeratorModeratorModerator
Eurotrip Points: 652
Member: 1032
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 9 weeks ago.

quote:
Of course not! How many people of African descent are in Mexico?

Actually, african slaves were brought to Mexico as well during the colonial period. After the independence, change of laws and everything, where do you think the african descendants went to? Do you think they were shipped back home? Or were they swallowed by the earth?

Apparently you don’t see many black people here, but guess what? The difference between white, brown and black is not so obvious here because the spanish did breed with blacks, and indians, and indians with mestizos and criollos with mulatos and this whole big mixture. All that african blood is watered down, to put it some way, you can’t see much of the stereotype, but don’t give me a lecture on us not knowing about african slaves, we had our share, and there is african blood here as well.

quote:
Is speedy gonzalez on a US stamp?

No, just on international TV.

quote:
We know where the image comes from. And if you do as well, and understand the context in which it was created, I don’t know why you support it.

Have you even read the comic??? Maybe you should start there.

Jester
Jester's profile picture
Moderator
ModeratorModeratorModeratorModeratorModerator
Eurotrip Points: 652
Member: 1032
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 9 weeks ago.

quote:
However, even YOU must admit(deep down in your heart) that if you were to come home and tell your folks that you are marrying a black man, they probably wouldn’t be too pleased. Am I right? You may be more open-minded, but the older generation isn’t(or not anymore).

As I said before, I have african american family. I also have japanese, american indian and mexican indigenous family. My folks only want a good man for me, wether he’s white, black, brown or blue with purple spots.

quote:
But, when I see red flag such as this stupid image on a stamp, it begs me to ask the questions: Why did they use this caricature for a stamp? What was their purpose?

The purpose was a very different one from what many people imagine. It’s not mockery. Comic books in Mexico’s history are very important. No comic here will come close to being as popular as Superman, but the importance is still there. A lot of people who didn’t have access to school during the times of the revolution had some degree of education thanks to comic books. Some learnt to read and write thanks to comic books.

I’m guessing here, but Memin Pinguin has been published for half a century now, it is the mexican comic that has had more public in Mexico. Memin’s 50th birthday had to be conmemorated someway.

And the creator of this comic had no intentions of mocking anyone either, she traveled to Cuba, fell in love with the children over there and created this caracter. There’s nothing more to it.

Honestly I don’t think the creator of Memin Pinguin took sambo as a base for her character. If it resembles sambo, that’s a different story.

Modulis
Modulis's profile picture
Eurotripper
EurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripperEurotripper
Eurotrip Points: 827
Member: 421
Joined: 01/03/2007
User offline. Last seen 7 years 29 weeks ago.

I’m really enjoying this discussion by the way.