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56 replies
Tom Tancredo says nuke Mecca
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I wonder if Colorado’s congressman Tom Tancredo was reading Eurotrip?

http://www.homelands…

A few days ago, I asked what would happen if we warned the Islamists that if they manage to set off simultaneous suitcase nukes in America cities, we will retaliate by nuking Mecca. I’m still thinking about this all, I’m not sure what the response should be to a Islamist nuclear attack yet, but I just threw the idea out there. We had a mutually assured destruction pact with the Soviets, if they destroyed us, we destroy them, therefore they were always in check. Since the only thing the terrorists value more than their life is Islam, I wonder if a credible M.A.D. threat would work as effectively as it did with the Soviets, only this time targetting places that Islamists value the most.

This whole issue has been sparked by a report a few days ago from a FBI consultant Paul William that claims Al Queda has acquired suitcase nukes from the Russian black market and intends to detonate them simultaneously in major US cities. I don’t know how credible he is, but I definately think it is VERY possible since this material is out there and Al Queda has the finances to acquire them and our borders are wide open.

On another front, a Chinese military official warned of a nuclear attack against the US if we interfere in their "re-uniting" with Taiwan. I think he’s blowing steam out of his ass, but still worth paying attention. I wonder who is going to buy all their junk if they nuke their largest customer?

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Fucking stupid.

The threat alone would inflame the situation so much more.

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"The threat alone would inflame the situation so much more."

I’m not so sure. The latest Pew poll of ME citizens indicates that their support for Bin Laden and suicide bombings (and other acts of violence taken from the Muslim political handbook) is on the decline. And when did this happen? After the successful US-led invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq. And after Muslims in certain countries saw THEMSELVES getting blown to bits by their own murderous and ineffective approach, as this article points out:

http://www.usatoday….

If this poll’s results are accurate, it seems to me that when faced with violence (and maybe the threat of violence) themselves, they may be a lot more thoughtful about blowing up our planes and our subways. Even the most illiterate Muslim is smart enough to understand that if we had the will, Mecca could be dust within a few minutes. A sobering thought, I gather.

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quote:I’m not so sure. The latest Pew poll of ME citizens indicates that their support for Bin Laden and suicide bombings (and other acts of violence taken from the Muslim political handbook) is on the decline.

How high was it? How accurate was the polling? Was it representative? Too many questions about such statistics I feel.

quote:And when did this happen? After the successful US-led invasion of Afghanistan and Iraq.

Well, since the first part is possibly innacurrate that affects the coorelation of the two.

And calling both invasions successful is certainly subjective to say the least.

quote:And after Muslims in certain countries saw THEMSELVES getting blown to bits by their own murderous and ineffective approach

I don’t like this generalization. You are speaking of a very small segment of the population that takes this approach.

The people being harmed were being harmed by extremists who make up a portion (how high we don’t know) of the population. The approach is being driven by some, not all.

quote:If this poll’s results are accurate, it seems to me that when faced with violence (and maybe the threat of violence) themselves, they may be a lot more thoughtful about blowing up our planes and our subways.

Highly unlikely in my opinion as the groups involved seem to have little regard for anyones well being, including their own.

The people of the ME aren’t the ones doing these attacks, it is extremist factions in these countries. I don’t blame every single American for what the Bush administration does by the same token.

Furthermore, the extremists don’t have a regard for their own people who they also consider traitors to Islam.

quote:Even the most illiterate Muslim is smart enough to understand that if we had the will, Mecca could be dust within a few minutes. A sobering thought, I gather.

Unfortunately some seem to see this option and are (wrongly) trying to do something about it.

If it was spelled out like that, do you honestly think it would deter the people who will kill anyone to achieve their corrupt ends?

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sickboy:

It amuses me that whenever professional polls contradict the beliefs of people such as yourself, there must be something wrong with the poll. Or do you really think Pew is disreputable?

The invasion wasn’t successful? Ask yourself… Which country’s leader is in jail – ours or Iraq’s? Which military suffered the most military casualties? What kind of government now rules Iraq? Or, if you like, count the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi citizens (as move-on.org claims) and then count the dead American/Western citizens. Who won this conflict??? Anyway, the point is that the whole Middle East can see that the West – not the Sunnis or the terrorists or Hussein – now basically controls Iraq. They can see the futility of terrorists killing Iraqi children as a way of expelling Western ideas. Can’t you? Or do you think Muslims can’t put two and two together?

quote: (Russ) If this poll’s results are accurate, it seems to me that when faced with violence (and maybe the threat of violence) themselves, they may be a lot more thoughtful about blowing up our planes and our subways.

quote: (sickboy) Highly unlikely in my opinion as the groups involved seem to have little regard for anyones well being, including their own.

No, Crazy terrorists don’t care about life. What I meant was that the people of the Middle East would be more thoughtful about supporting violence – logically, though, this could have an impact on crazy terrorists. Bin Laden has gone to a lot of trouble to rally the Muslim world because such support helps him recruit. Support is critical for their efforts. See?

quote:If it was spelled out like that, do you honestly think it would deter the people who will kill anyone to achieve their corrupt ends?

I don’t know. But it makes sense. You have to make terrorism painful for the terrorists and for the people who might support them, and maybe even for the moderate Muslims who would oppose them. The crazies want Islam to dominate the West. Ridiculous, of course, but if these zealots who care only for their religion lose a few of their most precious edifices and are bright enough to grasp that in the future, stimulus (terrorism) will become response (more mosques in rubble), then maybe so. And maybe the mainstream moderate Muslims that everyone refers to will also understand the inevitable consequences of terrorism and act proactively – maybe they’ll do as they should and seek out the crazies’ sorry terrorist asses before they do any more harm to innocents and to the Muslim faith.

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quote:It amuses me that whenever professional polls contradict the beliefs of people such as yourself, there must be something wrong with the poll. Or do you really think Pew is disreputable?

I never said anything was wrong. I merely expressed concern over the validity of the poll. Which anyone should do about any poll. I don’t believe in polls, nor the way you paint me with such a wide brush.

quote:The invasion wasn’t successful? Ask yourself… Which country’s leader is in jail – ours or Iraq’s? Which military suffered the most military casualties? What kind of government now rules Iraq? Or, if you like, count the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi citizens (as move-on.org claims) and then count the dead American/Western citizens. Who won this conflict???

This isn’t a productive line of discussion.

Winning is bullshit anyhow when there are so many losers.

quote:No, Crazy terrorists don’t care about life. What I meant was that the people of the Middle East would be more thoughtful about supporting violence – logically, though, this could have an impact on crazy terrorists. Bin Laden has gone to a lot of trouble to rally the Muslim world because such support helps him recruit. Support is critical for their efforts. See?

One thing that has always bothered me is that, there aren’t that many attacks, except for Iraq being the rousing success that it is. If there is so much support and so many terrorists, why are there so few attacks? I know there was a bombing in Turkey today, the one in London, but if there is so much support, and Al Queada the massive global power (which I doubt) why aren’t they doing more to fulfill their agenda?

Waiting? Plotting? Blownout of proportion? Not true?

If the there was so much support why so little action?

quote: You have to make terrorism painful for the terrorists and for the people who might support them, and maybe even for the moderate Muslims who would oppose them.

Which leads to a cycle of violence. The Russians have tried that in Chechneya for 200 years and that hasn’t been solved.

The parallel to guerilla warfare is quite striking, and we know how those usually turn out.

The moderate Muslims are the people who need to be engaged, not exploited or put in situations where things may be &quotainful" for them.

Why risk more anger when there is an alternative of moderation?

quote:The crazies want Islam to dominate the West.

What about the reverse, is that acceptable?

quote: Ridiculous, of course, but if these zealots who care only for their religion lose a few of their most precious edifices and are bright enough to grasp that in the future, stimulus (terrorism) will become response (more mosques in rubble), then maybe so.

I don’t think so. If they truly believed in that would they be contradicting the message through their acts? It is power that they want, religion is a means to the end (like all religions)

These are people who kill themselves for the chance to do some harm to what they perceive to be the enemy, they kill their children, they kill their elderly.

Violence isn’t going to solve anything, the enemy isn;t going to quit.

America has more to lose, people wont put up with the shit that the poverty stricken of the middle east will.

I wish I had an easy answer to this problem, but there isn’t one. But I can sure as hell tell when one of the answers is correct.

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quote:I never said anything was wrong. I merely expressed concern over the validity of the poll. Which anyone should do about any poll. I don’t believe in polls

You’re making it very hard to talk to you. If you don’t believe in polls, why question the validity of some particular poll like this one? Why ask whether the sample is representative?? Sheesh.

quote:If there is so much support and so many terrorists, why are there so few attacks?

Well, obviously, not everyone who thinks killing civilians is a great idea is going to go out and strap on some TNT. Bush had tremendous support for Afghanistan, but not everyone who supported him enlisted in the infantry. Or perhaps it takes a lot of planning, expertise, and training to carry out such attacks. That’s why they have terrorist camps, you know. It’s an Islamic specialty. Some cultures focus on medicine, some on cheap widgets, but some focus on the murder of non-Muslim civilians. Aside from religious bullshit, terrorism is maybe their greatest export, an enterprise reserved for the few, the proud, the religiously over-the-top. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t millions and millions of Muslims cheering them on like Cheeseheads cheering Bret Favre.

quote:If they truly believed in that would they be contradicting the message through their acts?

Well, THEY don’t see it as contradictory at all to butcher non-Muslims, but rather, as an act of faith. Just ask them. As I recall, it was in the name of Islam that the Moors conquered the Iberian peninsula and subdued part of modern-day France. But they aren’t unique in this regard. Many religions have swung violent in the distant past – and these people are much more connected to the distant past by virtue of their own self-imposed isolationist, ehtnocentric attitudes. You need to get past your own Western paradigm to see where the Islamic extremists – and there are millions of them – are coming from if you truly wish to understand them on their terms.

quote: Violence isn’t going to solve anything, the enemy isn;t going to quit.

An interesting juxtaposition of concepts. If this is true, why is it THEY aren’t going to quit? Why do you see them as incapable of learning this lesson? Sounds condescending and racist.

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The 3 problems I have with so many polls is that 1) the sample sizes are too small, 2) people who don’t know the answer will sometimes choose one of the options just for the sake of completing the poll, and 3) many questions are too complex for a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

Regarding the level of success in the Afghan and Iraq invasions, I here differing stories (most secondhand) from Marines who say that things are going much better over there than the oft-liberal media will have us believe. Then again, I do realize that unless these Marines are senior officers, they could easily be spoon-fed a different answer by their superiors in the same manner that we are spoon-fed the "truth" by the media. As such, I don’t entirely, know what to believe, but I do have my somewhat-educated opinions.

IMHO, Afghanistan was a moderate success but unless we commit a substantially-higher number of troops to blanket the mountainous regions and explore every cave, nook, and cranny for the still-present Taliban/Al Qaeda rebels, it won’t be a full and complete success. Can’t we, in part, blame Bill Clinton for military cutbacks in troops, etc?

As for Iraq, it’s been discussed to death but we ain’t out of the thick just yet, and it will be some time before we are. I think there can be a light at the end of the tunnel, but it’s a long road and will again require the deployment of more troops.

And Russ, I think the reason the Jihadists won’t stop the killings is the same reason that there is unrest going back over 2000 years. 1) They see the invasion of modern culture, i.e. the West’s secularism and Britney Spears dancing on MTV in a diamond-studded g-string and not much else, as a direct threat on their more old-fashioned, men-are-dominant-and-women-are-submissive, make-time-for-prayer-5x-daily-no-matter-what-you-are-doing, culture. 2) They see the Jews—and all Jew sympathizers/nations—as a bunch of greedy heathens who stole Abraham’s fortune and killed Jesus (and are therefore incapable of ever redeeming themselves). To them, preserving their way of life against the western invaders and ultimately overthrowing/wiping out the evil, Christ-killing Jews as causes worth dying for.

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quote:And Russ, I think the reason the Jihadists won’t stop the killings is the same reason that there is unrest going back over 2000 years. 1) They see the invasion of modern culture, i.e. the West’s secularism and Britney Spears dancing on MTV in a diamond-studded g-string and not much else, as a direct threat on their more old-fashioned, men-are-dominant-and-women-are-submissive, make-time-for-prayer-5x-daily-no-matter-what-you-are-doing, culture.

So, we’ve been parading in g-strings for 2000 years? I agree that Spears etc. is a principle excuse for the violence and killing NOW, but I think the principle reason for their jihads over the last 20 centuries is their intolerance of difference, no matter what the difference is.

quote:2) They see the Jews—and all Jew sympathizers/nations—as a bunch of greedy heathens who stole Abraham’s fortune and killed Jesus (and are therefore incapable of ever redeeming themselves). To them, preserving their way of life against the western invaders and ultimately overthrowing/wiping out the evil, Christ-killing Jews as causes worth dying for.

Yes, more testimony to their intolerance of difference. But really. They don’t have to kill those who are different to preserve their way of life – plenty of backwards places preserve their backwardness without violence. And do they really think that killing us will preserve their way of life?? What evidence do they have that it’s working? No, they really aren’t thinking at all, they’re just living out the traditional fantasies of their pathetic religious culture – kill the infidel. It seems the senseless violence and their belief in senseless violence as an expression of their religious values is just too deeply ingrained in too many of them to be given up.

But does that mean they can’t change, ever? I hope not. Maybe the absolute futility of such attacks can somehow be made clearer to them – as clear as it was to Imperial Japan – but hopefully without the horrifying loss of civilian life.

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quote:An interesting juxtaposition of concepts. If this is true, why is it THEY aren’t going to quit? Why do you see them as incapable of learning this lesson? Sounds condescending and racist.

Im a busy man today so Im just gonna laugh at this line of yours. I tried to be civil, but you won’t meet me half way. Normally I would make a pot calling the kettle black joke, but I won’t make the joke. Toodles.

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quote:

Well, obviously, not everyone who thinks killing civilians is a great idea is going to go out and strap on some TNT. Bush had tremendous support for Afghanistan, but not everyone who supported him enlisted in the infantry. Or perhaps it takes a lot of planning, expertise, and training to carry out such attacks. That’s why they have terrorist camps, you know. It’s an Islamic specialty. Some cultures focus on medicine, some on cheap widgets, but some focus on the murder of non-Muslim civilians. Aside from religious bullshit, terrorism is maybe their greatest export, an enterprise reserved for the few, the proud, the religiously over-the-top. But that doesn’t mean that there aren’t millions and millions of Muslims cheering them on like Cheeseheads cheering Bret Favre.

I’m wondering if there have been any fatwas issued against radical Islam by the moderates.

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quote:
I’m wondering if there have been any fatwas issued against radical Islam by the moderates.
[url=‘http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/95B76BB6-C50C-4789-A836-303DFDDDFD74.htm’]aljazeera.net[/url]
And in case you don’t think they are objective:
[url=‘http://www.voanews.com/english/2005-07-17-voa32.cfm’]1[/url]
[url=‘http://www.theconservativevoice.com/ap/article.html?mi=D8BD99DG0&apc=9002’]2[/url]
[url=‘http://www.wpbfnews.com/news/4733771/detail.html’]3[/url]

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Cool.

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I’d be lying if I said the idea hadn’t occurred to me before. Do you think we’d be able to wait for the Haj thougth?… Couple million birds with one(very big, preferably mulitple megatons..) stone, so to speak..

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Wow, I’ve been gone too long. The whole Iraq/Afghanistan/911/terorrism/Islamist debate in the Pub is starting to reflect the same mainstream bullshit we get from the media, which doesn’t even come close to the real issues.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it agian. It’s NOT an ideological war. It’s not conservative Muslims rejecting Britney Spears (do Saudi citizens even know of her?). It’s not their struggle to preserve their way of life. Nor is it their global plot to make the world conservative Muslim.

IT’S GEOPOLITIK STUPID. It’s oil. It’s governments. It’s poverty. It’s shifting borders. It’s trade. It’s markets. It’s air and naval bases. It’s water sources. It’s shipping routes. It’s commercial ports. It’s political alliances. It’s pipelines. It’s banks and currencies. It’s the arms industry. It’s energy supplies. It’s infrastructure contracts. It’s security firms.

It’s global, modern-day gold rush in the Middle East.

That’s what this is all about, folks. That’s the culprit. It’s not the burka…it’s the Suez Canal. It’s not Britney Spears…it’s Kuwait’s ports. It’s not g-strings…it’s arms exports to ME governments. It’s not women’s lib…it’s Caspian-to-Persian Gulf pipelines.

Wake up folks, and don’t believe every fucking thing you’re told.


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Your explanation is just too simplistic beach.

If it’s all about economics, where exactly is the amazing prosperity these terrorists are trying to maintain? If a terrorist wants to be a Henry Ford or a Bill Gates, or wants his people to achieve economic parity with you and me, he’d be foolish to blow up the people who can help him and his people get there.

You’d like to think you are dealing with intellectuals who have a grasp of Geopolitik. But the extremists are religious crazies. Their heads are in heaven. The people that cheer them are illiterate sheep. We’re dealing with a sizeable segment of a radically different culture that doesn’t participate in your international policy paradigm.

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Religious crazies or not, many extremists are very well educated and have a firm grasp of history. While most of the suicide bombers themselves may be disaffected youth, many of the people guiding them were educated in Western countries and are very intellectual (a good example being Tariq Ramadan).

These people do not want to be a "Henry Ford or Bill Gates", they want a ressurgence of the power that the Islamic civilization had during the reign of Suleyman. Events like the decline of the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East basically being divvied up by England and France after World War I are still something that fundamentalists (and many other Muslims) are struggling with today. The superiority of Islam to other religions is inherent in its doctrine, and Muslims are trying to reconcile this with the (relatively) weak position of many Muslim countries.

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Iraq was a proseprous country before the sanctions. In fact, American war television correspondents were surprised by the difference between developed Iraq (with freeways and NORMAL cities…albeit crumbling infrastructure after more than 10 years of sanctions) and backwards Afghanistan. Iraqis are a generally well-educated population compared to other countires in the region, due to a prosperous past.

Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the UAE, Bahrain, and Qatar are, per head, among the wealthiest countries in the world, on par with the industrialized nations of North America, Western Europe, and East Asia. Their standard of living is among the highest in the world, taking into consideration only immediate needs (health care, food, shelter, sanitation, clean water, etc) and not political freedoms. In fact, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE attract immigrants from several countries, both Arab and non-Arab. I think half the population residing in the UAE is made up of aliens. Many foreign Arabs (Palestinians, etc), and several South Asians.

Oil, pipelines, shipping routes, ports, wealth.

Not all the countries are prosperous. Some are poorer, and others are dirt poor. It’s a very economically diverse region, with rich countries side-by-side with poor ones.

Nor do all the countries need to be rich in order for the region to be a goldmine. It goes as far back as the early 20th century with the $$Suez Canal$$ It was the first strategic geopolitical project in the Middle East in modern times, and remains incredibly unbelievably important to this day. Trade between Europe and the Persian Gulf and East Asia need not go around Africa, saving $time$ and $money$.

Another major project is the US-sponsored pipeline from the Caspian Sea region to an ocean outlet. Several possibilities here: Caspian to Indian Sea (through Afghanista, avoiding Iran). Caspian to Persian Gulf (thorugh Turkey/Iraq or Iran). Caspian to Mediterranean (from Azerbaijan through Turkey and Georgia, avoiding Russia). The latter is already in the planning stages.

Also: Iraq and Iran sit on vast oil reserves.

There is so much more. It’s a modern-day gold rush, Russ.

Wake up. Smell the oil. And don’t beleive everything they tell you.


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To repeat, a clash of civilizations this is.. The crazies don’t recruit suicide-bombers by talking about geopolitik. They talk about striking a blow against the great satan America. And after they nuke one or more of our cities, then maybe we’ll stop all this liberal-sympathy nonsense..

I saw a documentary a few years ago – before 9/11 – and a guy said that ONE bomb, about the size of one of the Japan bombs(15-20 kilotons), dropped inside the beltway, would exceed the capacity of the ENTIRE COUNTRY’S medical burn units. The guy said, and he’s absolutely right, that once that happens, from that moment on, from the other side of that event, the world will be a TOTALLY different place.

Unfortunately it’s going to take something like that to get people to see just how stupid the past four decades of liberal cultural politics has been.

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quote:And after they nuke one or more of our cities, then maybe we’ll stop all this liberal-sympathy nonsense..

Define they.

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quote:
Iraq was a proseprous country before the sanctions. In fact, American war television correspondents were surprised by the difference between developed Iraq (with freeways and NORMAL cities…albeit crumbling infrastructure after more than 10 years of sanctions) and backwards Afghanistan. Iraqis are a generally well-educated population compared to other countires in the region, due to a prosperous past.

Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the UAE, Bahrain, and Qatar are, per head, among the wealthiest countries in the world, on par with the industrialized nations of North America, Western Europe, and East Asia. Their standard of living is among the highest in the world, taking into consideration only immediate needs (health care, food, shelter, sanitation, clean water, etc) and not political freedoms. In fact, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE attract immigrants from several countries, both Arab and non-Arab. I think half the population residing in the UAE is made up of aliens. Many foreign Arabs (Palestinians, etc), and several South Asians.

Oil, pipelines, shipping routes, ports, wealth.

Not all the countries are prosperous. Some are poorer, and others are dirt poor. It’s a very economically diverse region, with rich countries side-by-side with poor ones.

Nor do all the countries need to be rich in order for the region to be a goldmine. It goes as far back as the early 20th century with the $$Suez Canal$$ It was the first strategic geopolitical project in the Middle East in modern times, and remains incredibly unbelievably important to this day. Trade between Europe and the Persian Gulf and East Asia need not go around Africa, saving $time$ and $money$.

Another major project is the US-sponsored pipeline from the Caspian Sea region to an ocean outlet. Several possibilities here: Caspian to Indian Sea (through Afghanista, avoiding Iran). Caspian to Persian Gulf (thorugh Turkey/Iraq or Iran). Caspian to Mediterranean (from Azerbaijan through Turkey and Georgia, avoiding Russia). The latter is already in the planning stages.

Also: Iraq and Iran sit on vast oil reserves.

There is so much more. It’s a modern-day gold rush, Russ.

Wake up. Smell the oil. And don’t beleive everything they tell you.

I don’t think it’s about making money for Halliburton or Bechtel, I think it’s all about the continuity of industrial civilization. The foreign policy of the west with regards to the middle east has been to keep the oil flowing no matter what and support anyone who will maintain stability and keep the radicals in check as our entire civilization as we know it depends on a stable flow of oil. I think the war was based on a theory of reshaping the middle east. You have moderate moslem countries(at least the leadership anyway) like Jordan, Turkey and Egypt and then you have the hardliners like Iran, Saudi Arabia and the former Taliban. I think the point of the war was to tip the middle east toward the direction of the moderate Islamic countries, starting with Iraq, then moving into Syria or Iran, which would then put pressure on Saudi Arabia. They felt that this was the best way to ensure long-term stability, drain the swamp of terrorists, end the hostility with Israel and modernize the region.

Now if this ambitious plan actually worked(and it’s still a work in progress I suppose), then who could really complain about it?

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quote:Iraq was a proseprous country before the sanctions. In fact, American war television correspondents were surprised by the difference between developed Iraq (with freeways and NORMAL cities…albeit crumbling infrastructure after more than 10 years of sanctions) and backwards Afghanistan.

But the terrorists aren’t blowing up babies to support Hussein’s Iraq. They see an opportunity to turn the place into Afghanistan. Religious terror succeeded and flowered in Afghanistan – the model society for these people, apparently.

quote:Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, the UAE, Bahrain, and Qatar are, per head, among the wealthiest countries in the world, on par with the industrialized nations of North America, Western Europe, and East Asia. Their standard of living is among the highest in the world, taking into consideration only immediate needs (health care, food, shelter, sanitation, clean water, etc) and not political freedoms. In fact, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, and the UAE attract immigrants from several countries, both Arab and non-Arab.

So poverty isn’t an issue. Okay. Yes, these countries are probably doing better than they have at any time in history. Why? Because they have a relationship with us, their oil-buying clients. And what do terrorists want? The demise of governments like the Saudis, the destruction of America, a purging of all things Western. Clearly, the terrorists have no real sincere interest in economic issues if they are so eager to discard the only system that has provided for their people. Once the West has been destroyed, who is it that will buy their oil, exactly? They can’t drink it, you know. Will they be exporting their medical technology? Do they have a back up plan? Can they do or make anything else that anyone anywhere would want to buy?

Where is that terrorist economic plan, anyway? All I hear is religious rhetoric and hate speech and the sounds of bombs going off in public places. You aren’t hearing these people, beach.

quote:Religious crazies or not, many extremists are very well educated and have a firm grasp of history. While most of the suicide bombers themselves may be disaffected youth, many of the people guiding them were educated in Western countries and are very intellectual (a good example being Tariq Ramadan).

Yes, it does seem that many of them have gotten through XYZ State or whatever. But it always amazes me when religious zealots – of any flavor – get through college. They must be split personalities or simply deaf to the central message of a good liberal education – that humanity is important and that life can be enhanced through reason and endeavor. Anyone who graduates and then promotes religous fundamentalism and suicide bombing and genocide apparently missed the message. And I think they study in America and Germany and Britain because their own countries’ universities are mostly worthless, controlled as they are by fundamentalism.

quote:These people do not want to be a "Henry Ford or Bill Gates", they want a ressurgence of the power that the Islamic civilization had during the reign of Suleyman. Events like the decline of the Ottoman Empire and the Middle East basically being divvied up by England and France after World War I are still something that fundamentalists (and many other Muslims) are struggling with today. The superiority of Islam to other religions is inherent in its doctrine, and Muslims are trying to reconcile this with the (relatively) weak position of many Muslim countries.

If you listen to beach, they’re economic dynamos, not weak countries. Anyway, yes, perhaps they view themselves as weak. I think you’re right, eggywegs. It’s probably not economics at all. It’s a power-hungry, ethnocentric group that many Muslims belong to. Fundamentalist Islamic religious beliefs are contrary to the free market as it is practiced today, where freewheeling ideas are sold and bought. Imagine trying to be a women’s clothing designer in some Muslim fundamentalist country and you can see the self-imposed economic tethers that hold them back. And without economic strength, you have no power at all.

What I don’t get is why they choose to use economic strength as a criterion for comparing themselves to Western countries. Why not just pride yourself on the greatness of your own religious beliefs, if that’s what guides your existence? Theirs seems a largely psychological issue, in the same way that the Germans of the 30’s had a psychological issue – superiority complex born of excessive ethnocentrism. Unfortunately, I think Muslims have the same sort of blind obedience to their religion as the Germans had to their Fuehrer. The only reason they aren’t the same threat is that the West does have some tentacles in the Middle East. And the fundamentalists just are not as well led or organized as the Germans were.

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Got to laugh at Russ, "who won the war:… I still see plenty of bodybags coming out of Iraq and Afghanistan a la the Soviet invasion forces of the 80’s.

As to the "Bill Gates" and "Henry Fords" who can "guide them there"… all I see Coporate America dumping it’s own citizens on the scrap heap to benefit the top 1%… people in the Middle East aren’t stupid, 14 years of capitalism in Russian and the former eastern bloc countries doesn’t look like something your average Joe would want to buy into.

In the words of James song, sit down:

[b]
– If I hadn’t seen such riches
I could live with being poor[b]

Muslims are well aware that Capitalism is a false doctrine, the American Dream is only a reality for less than 5% of the people max, quality of life isn’t all about take big home pay checks and how much electronic consumer shite you can surround yourself with….

Core social values are all but gone in the west…. name one thing that stands above insatiable personal greed ??? As much as Russ likes to rubbish the Muslim mind I think that going to Allah is a much more realistic prospect for Americans than being happy in this life.

We’ll only turn things around when we realize that happiness isn’t the next $ turner for Microsoft and Sony, they keep sticking this shite down our throats & we’re going to bomb the Iraqis into submission till they comsume.

In short: the Globalist economy is bankrrupt and the only way to keep it afloat is to give it periodic CPR in the form of hostile opening of new markets.

Modulis, read this article and then do more searching, the world was on the edge of a massive financial collapse weeks before 9/11….

check the date of this article

http://www.fromthewi…

Your property bubble is the last of the tricks they have to keep the pyramid afloat. check out the graphs below: Resemble the Nasdaq in 99 ???

This war on terror is nothing but a distraction, all mainstream politics are a distraction… it’s about centralization of wealth.

Russ can keep swallowing the jingoism, that’s bullshit and he’s the biggest sucker round here, played for a fool.

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jboy – you COULD be a man of your word and stay away. But it looks like I’ll have to kick your ass.

quote:Muslims are well aware that Capitalism is a false doctrine, the American Dream is only a reality for less than 5% of the people max, quality of life isn’t all about take big home pay checks and how much electronic consumer shite you can surround yourself with….

So why is Joe six-pack always waving his flag? If you actually ask Americans if they’re happy, most of them are. Which country was the "American Dream" named after, you horse’s ass? It’s no coincidence. Which system has provided, over a sustained period, the best standard of living for the greatest number of its people? Was it the "greedless" GDR? Is that why they had to be gunned down for trying to leave? How is it that the Chinese have prospered so markedly and become such an economic wunderkind with their newfound love capitalist ways? Which system has millions of destitute people knocking on the door to get in, or just running in anyway, in our case, you ignorant slut? And why is it that fundamentalist Muslims, the true believers, if they understand the true value of life, don’t just stay at home with their families and pray? What a joke. They have to buy Western-made cellphones so they can blow up white babies and grandmothers to demonstrate their understanding of the meaning of life.

quote:Core social values are all but gone in the west….

I guess you prefer a land where the solid values lead to stoning for religious infractions or for behaving badly as a female.

Your nearly full glass is nearly empty in your acrid, cynical eyes. You’re no different from the Bible thumpers selling doom-and-gloom pages from Revelations with your own version of Armageddon.

So why haven’t you moved off your impoverished little island and gone to a real country somewhere, like maybe Cuba, or Yemen? Too busy expressing yourself freely on your western-designed and produced computer? My guess is that you want your ugly grandchildren to grow up in the West and be able to do the same.

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Muslim extremists. No no, not the CIA, for you silly conspiracy theorists..

Is it not an insanely extreme symptom of Western cultural decadance and corruption(i.e. liberalism – in the 60’s sense..) that there are those among us who would actually like to find out that the CIA would do something like that?.. In other words, that such evil could only come from "us", and not from the real enemy?.. Interesting, that.

Sidenote: Maybe I talk to the wrong people, but once again I looked forward to watching a movie last night, that most people seemed to have talked favorably about, which in the end made me want to totally barf.. The movie was "The Patriot", and it was truly horrible(though I watched it in German, and perhaps missed some of the good bits – but just as likely some of the particularly nauseating bits as well..) Anyway, naturally I got thinking about the role of this evil British dragoon in the film and the issue of natural interests and morals, particularly with respect to today’s problems. Whatever the case, can it really be said that the Brits were "evil" for pursuing their interests? Who doesn’t? – it’s as natural as eating a cheeseburger – and always has been.. It’s what we’re doing now. What’s really nauseating is – at least nowadays – the political hypocrisy. In the film OK this guy is made out to be so exaggeratedly evil, but he was just the tool of Britain’s policy – kind of like today’s soldiers. I don’t know. I talk about politics and America’s role in the world with lots of Germans and people from around the world, and they always talk so acridly about America pursuing its interests. Well, which country wouldn’t? The point is, it’s not the pursuit of interests that’s bad(the end), but the words, the diplomacy, etc..(the means). Which is why I wish Bush would’ve just made his case for Iraq in cold, analytical terms about America pursuing its interests(which, by the way, should have coincided with the world’s – ie. peace in the region, etc..) OK, kind of a tangent there. Killing time instead of writing reports..

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Like you Russ, I will be moving too, unfortunately Globalism will not doubt follow me

So Russ, if your country is sooo great why were you forced to up sticsk and off to "less tarnished’ parts ??

It’s all interconnected and you can’t see it. Waving flags ?? I see lots of embittered War widows and parents, disgruntled youth who can’t get on the property ladder (take a bow Modulis) and so on.

The flag waving is a autoresponse to media conditioning, why not engage in sensible dialog about your countries problems instead of blindly jumping to defend it. The UK? I ain’t going to stick up for ther UK, the establishment here, Tony Blair or so on

If you break it down, there’s a lot wrong with your country, mines too.. but your defence of something rotten doesn’t help matters.

To highlight the pathetic fickleness of the first countries:

Britain pledges more aid for Niger
1.12PM, Mon Jul 25 2005

The Government is handing famine-stricken Niger an extra £1m in aid in an attempt to avert the mass starvation of its people.

Hmmmm, I seem to remember the biggest effort in history to end poverty in africa not a month ago yet I don’t see Bob fucking Geldoph, Bono or the 100’s of 1000’s of useless ponces that put their Ipods down for a day anywhere in sight.

Big difference is the GDR did fall and anybody who tried before that paid with their life, you’re free to change what you want yet you’re scared to… hence why you’re running away and chosing the path of least resistance.

quote:
I guess you prefer a land where the solid values lead to stoning for religious infractions or for behaving badly as a female.

Yes, there are ethical aspects of middle eastern life that I agree with and their stance on, crime and punishment has some things that we could learn from. If someone steals from you, cut their hands off seem like a good idea to me, fit punishemnt for 100’s of Enron directors wouldn;t you say?

Interestly enough I was reading a news report that the US have lost control of the warlords and the fight against poppy growers seems the Taliban had more of a handle on it that the USA…. oh, I forgot, your govts agencies promote drug production… anything to make a $.

http://www.cacianaly…

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quote:I guess you prefer a land where the solid values lead to stoning for religious infractions or for behaving badly as a female.

This is why arguing with Russ is pointless.

What a fuckin assumption.

Disagreeing on another point leads to that.

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quote:So Russ, if your country is sooo great why were you forced to up sticsk and off to "less tarnished’ parts ??

It’s all interconnected and you can’t see it. Waving flags ?? I see lots of embittered War widows and parents, disgruntled youth who can’t get on the property ladder (take a bow Modulis) and so on.

I’m staying in the country. Doesn’t your country have more and less desirable areas? Anyway, something like 3/4 of Americans own their own homes, I understand. But it’s not a matter or my country or yours being perfect or so great, it’s about the wretched existence that Islamic fundamentalism would impose on you and the rest of the planet if it had its way with the rest of us. If you can’t differentiate between that vision and ours, you are useless. You can bang away at the weaknesses of the West all you like in the way you’ve been trained but it doesn’t make the Islamo-fascist vision any better. You’re really too elitist to take a side here? Silly, crazy fart.

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As far as I can gather, Bin Laden said will destroy America because it’s destroying his lands and their faith base.

I personally have no desire to meddle in Midlle Eastern affairs but your Govt (& mines) has brought this upon you (us) with it’s unflinching support of Israel which I believe should be left to it’s own devices.

That’s the root of the war on terror. Why we should keep propping up a artifical pseuadostat like Zion is beyond be.

As you said yourself, Undesirable place, nasty neighbours, maybe the Jews should get out and leave the Middle East tot eh Muslims, all they’re causing is greif.

Trained? ? I’m not trained in anything, I look at the facts and reason out the situation. In nature there’s a balance… in the middle east, the forcible repossession of palestian lands is causing bother, US air bases in Saudia is causing bother, Russians in chechnya is causing bother. unrestrained Globalism is causing bother.

The answer is balance, 100 years of dealing with the west has bred Islamic violence, there can be no reasoning with the west and their will, that’s all that will prevail… what’s so difficult to understand about that ?? I’m not going to sing the praises of western life, we’re wrecking this planet and those steering the ship are only bothered about their persnal interests & power ,the here and now. I don’t want to be rich, I want a simpler life, unlike yourself that’s running off to find a better life, it’s chasing rainbows.. you’ve got to confront the problems and resolve them head on, not run away or try to blow them up.

As far as I can see you’re advocating the perpetual war of Bush and Bin Laden, probably the 2 craziest cunts on the planet, great to see the brains guiding our children are as a dim as an Afghan oil lamp right now!

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quote:
As far as I can gather, Bin Laden said will destroy America because it’s destroying his lands and their faith base.

I personally have no desire to meddle in Midlle Eastern affairs but your Govt (& mines) has brought this upon you (us) with it’s unflinching support of Israel which I believe should be left to it’s own devices.

That’s the root of the war on terror. Why we should keep propping up a artifical pseuadostat like Zion is beyond be.

Nonsense. Bin Ladin really isn’t carrying the Palestinian cause. His raison d‘être is the overthrow of the Saudi government. As it happens, the US military is his main obstable to doing such, so therefore we are his number one target. I don’t think he really gives a damn about Palestine, other than using it as a cause celebre to recruit more cut-throats to be martyrs while he hides in caves giving the orders. Why you believe that a nation that is dot on the map surrounded by Arab nations deserves such ire is beyond me.

quote:
As you said yourself, Undesirable place, nasty neighbours, maybe the Jews should get out and leave the Middle East tot eh Muslims, all they’re causing is greif.

Do you honestly believe this crap?

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Yes I do,

would you move into reckneck country in the deep south and start up home amongst a town of all the Klansmen down there ??

No you wouldn’t as it’s not worth the hassle.

It’s not crap, it’s fact… for 1500 years this mob have been travelling the world, a scattered nation then 50 odd years ago they take the land by force.

Should we grant the Gypsies a nation homeland in India? Why not the Kurds too, there was a Kurdistan only 50 odd years ago, legitimate cases for all.

Why ethnic Albanians get Kosovo, isn’t Albania enough for them, what about a Islamo-Macedonia enclave, or one in Greece why not give Muslim Americans a New Mecca in Nevada.

Your grasp of history and western contradictory intereference is shocking!

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Tell you what, why don’t relocate the entire Jewish diaspora to Scotland. Happy? Problem solved.

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More money to be made in Cali, plus they can help grow that bubble there so nobody gets stung!

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quote:your Govt (& mines) has brought this upon you (us) with it’s unflinching support of Israel which I believe should be left to it’s own devices. That’s the root of the war on terror. Why we should keep propping up a artifical pseuadostat like Zion is beyond be.

Israel was born with the support of most of the planet, and for good reason. There’s no reason its existence shouldn’t continue to be supported. We give unflinching support and mega $ to plenty of others there as well. There is no reason to support Muslim hatred instead. But Israel really isn’t the problem anyway, it’s Muslim fanatacism. Was Israel why 80+ Egyptians just lost their lives?? Or was that America’s fault?

quote:100 years of dealing with the west has bred Islamic violence

Ha. Their propensity for violence can be traced back through the millennia and in their holy book and practices (that’s why you called it "Islamic" violence, I imagine.)

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quote:

Ha. Their propensity for violence can be traced back through the millennia and in their holy book and practices (that’s why you called it "Islamic" violence, I imagine.)

and ours too, not a valid argument.

BTW: what was the good reason ?? the holocaust ??? then why hasn’t Kurdistan been re-instated afterthe gassing of the Kurds in the 80’s ???

I mean, we’re in the habit of bending over backwards to accomodate those who’vve been the victims of "ethnic clensing"… we gave Ethnic Gangsters, a hem, I mean Albanians their own land, seems that it’s never enough for these people, Jews want more of the west bank and Gaza and the Druglording Pimp Albanians want Macedonia and bits ofr Greece.

It’s selective and you know it’s a joke, so crawl back under your stone Jewkisser, because you’ve go no comeback !!!

BTW: Clinton laid a wreath at the memorial of the Rwanda genocide this week and said he was racked with &quotersonal guilt" at not doing more, it’s amazing what Corporate America and the ruling Eltie will let slide in the name of cash and power!

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quote:Ha. Their propensity for violence can be traced back through the millennia and in their holy book and practices (that’s why you called it "Islamic" violence, I imagine.)

Wow, is that ever selective. Good thing the Christians stayed away from all of that nonsense. They always treated the Jews well too, I suppose.

The Christians have a longer history the the Muslims and just as bloody.

But the Muslims finished behind the Christians.

I wonder what would have happened if the reverse happened? Imam Russ (he does sound just like one, the other side of the coin) shouting at the barbaric Christians?

Probably.

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quote:
quote:your Govt (& mines) has brought this upon you (us) with it’s unflinching support of Israel which I believe should be left to it’s own devices. That’s the root of the war on terror. Why we should keep propping up a artifical pseuadostat like Zion is beyond be.

Israel was born with the support of most of the planet, and for good reason. There’s no reason its existence shouldn’t continue to be supported. We give unflinching support and mega $ to plenty of others there as well. There is no reason to support Muslim hatred instead. But Israel really isn’t the problem anyway, it’s Muslim fanatacism. Was Israel why 80+ Egyptians just lost their lives?? Or was that America’s fault?

quote:100 years of dealing with the west has bred Islamic violence

Ha. Their propensity for violence can be traced back through the millennia and in their holy book and practices (that’s why you called it "Islamic" violence, I imagine.)

Drivel, I say.

Open your eyes, fool. The reason for most of the discontent in the Middle East is Israel. Plain and simple, Israel is much too greedy and unwilling to budge in sharing its commerce, property, and water rights. End of fucking story, already. Quit equating Muslim fundamentalists with the entire Islamic religion, you sap!

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Open your eyes, fool. The reason for most of the discontent in the Middle East is Israel.

You can’t possibly believe this. Who has killed more Arabs, Syd? Israel or other Moslems? Even moderate Jordan has killed more Palestinians than Israel has.

quote:
Plain and simple, Israel is much too greedy and unwilling to budge in sharing its commerce, property, and water rights.

So all this terrorism from Morocco to Pakistan is because Israel is too greedy. Wow.

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quote:So all this terrorism from Morocco to Pakistan is because Israel is too greedy. Wow

That is not what he said at all. It is what you said. You took his point and made it into that? What are you some word magician?

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quote:
quote:So all this terrorism from Morocco to Pakistan is because Israel is too greedy. Wow

That is not what he said at all. It is what you said. You took his point and made it into that? What are you some word magician?

I stand by what I said, his words were "The reason for most of the discontent in the Middle East is Israel."

Since discontent is what fuels terrorism, and syd believes most the discontent in the middle is because of Israel, why is what I said playing word magician?

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Cause ‘n effect……………….
Cause ‘n effect………..
Cause ‘n effect……

"Back and to the left………."
"Back, and to the left………….."
"Back……….and to the left…………."

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We need a better eye rolling smiley here.

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The problem with my fellow Americans in this pub is we fail to look outside the news sources that we receive. If we can’t access it, or if we don’t get it here………..it’s invalid, dishonest, leftist propaganda. Or, just plain anti-American.

Now, if an idea seems hair-brained or outrageous(especially going against the grain of American values),we simply won’t accept it.

Modulis, Russ, and anyone else who stubbornly refuse to look at some absolute truths, hear me out. I stand by what I wrote earlier that most of the discontent(ok, frustration) in the region is centered around the Israel problem. What’s so unbelieveable about that?

The problem is that WE, America, stand behind Israel 100%! We don’t support, investigate, or pay any serious regard to ANY of the Palestinians’ grieveances. None. What’s more, at the UN and in the World Court, when members of the Palestinian Authority or governmental departments present their cases against Israel, we are either not present or out to lunch. That’s just plain disrespect.

So, America is seen as protector and provider of Israel.

The other reality is, Israel has no interest to share its toys. As economic/military powerhouse(with U.S. blessing) in the region, Israel has all the power to call the shots. Do you know what the most important resource in the region is??? Nope. Not oil. Water. That’s right. If you look at a detailed relief map of Israel, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan, you will see that Israel won the best lands. What’s more, after the ’67 War and the Yom Kippur War of ’74, Israel enlarged its territory beyond its original "legal" boundaries, and systematically kicked out the inhabitants mostly Palestinian muslims and Christians. Israel used the excuse to attain these lands for solely strategic and defensive purposes. But, again, when you look on the map, there are major underground aquifers and water wells nearby. Now, Israel guards these sights with its people’s lives behind a U.S.-provided air force, army, and nuclear weapons program. Better hope that Israel doesn’t have an itchy finger if things go awry following the scheduled(now-delayed) Gaza pullout of settlers.

"Why don’t other arab countries help the Palestinians with offering some of their land?" Because that’s not the issue. For most of the Palestinians and Arabs in the region, Israel is an unrepentant, territorial thief. And, Israel refuses to fully recognize Palestinian people as legitimate equal citizens before the law. Quite simply, a palestinian in Israeli territory(even in settler zones) is fucked!

(School alarm bell rings and zipping of backpacks)"Ok, class dismissed. Next class meeting we’ll talk about how "terrorist" groups like Hamas and Hezbollah were, for a time, the ONLY providers of basic necessities for Palestinians in the recent past(setting up of charities for schools, businesses, and hospitals), and why you’re not supposed to know that!"

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The problem is that WE, America, stand behind Israel 100%! We don’t support, investigate, or pay any serious regard to ANY of the Palestinians’ grieveances. None. What’s more, at the UN and in the World Court, when members of the Palestinian Authority or governmental departments present their cases against Israel, we are either not present or out to lunch. That’s just plain disrespect.

I’m not going to claim I agree with everything Israel does 100%, but of all the human rights violators in that region of the world, they are pretty damn close to the bottom of the list. The Palestinians could have had a state decades ago.

quote:
The other reality is, Israel has no interest to share its toys. As economic/military powerhouse(with U.S. blessing) in the region, Israel has all the power to call the shots. Do you know what the most important resource in the region is??? Nope. Not oil. Water. That’s right. If you look at a detailed relief map of Israel, Syria, Lebanon, and Jordan, you will see that Israel won the best lands. What’s more, after the ’67 War and the Yom Kippur War of ’74, Israel enlarged its territory beyond its original "legal" boundaries, and systematically kicked out the inhabitants mostly Palestinian muslims and Christians. Israel used the excuse to attain these lands for solely strategic and defensive purposes. But, again, when you look on the map, there are major underground aquifers and water wells nearby. Now, Israel guards these sights with its people’s lives behind a U.S.-provided air force, army, and nuclear weapons program. Better hope that Israel doesn’t have an itchy finger if things go awry following the scheduled(now-delayed) Gaza pullout of settlers.

"Why don’t other arab countries help the Palestinians with offering some of their land?" Because that’s not the issue. For most of the Palestinians and Arabs in the region, Israel is an unrepentant, territorial thief. And, Israel refuses to fully recognize Palestinian people as legitimate equal citizens before the law. Quite simply, a palestinian in Israeli territory(even in settler zones) is fucked!

Maybe that has something to do with all the bus loads of kids they’ve blown up. I don’t feel much sympathy for the Palestinians. I believe in a 2 state solution ultimately, but I think they’ve got enough dirty laundry of their own to clean up. In response to your comment about being a territorial theif, the Palestinians were viewed Saddam Hussein as a hero, a man that is undeniably a territorial theif, and a butcher of 100s of thousands of Arabs.

Let’s cut the crap, we all know that if we were deported to a middle eastern country of our choice tomorrow, most of us in here would choose Israel before we choose any of the surrounding countries, knowing that it is the only place there where you have any kind of rights or democracy.

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quote:I’m not going to claim I agree with everything Israel does 100%, but of all the human rights violators in that region of the world, they are pretty damn close to the bottom of the list. The Palestinians could have had a state decades ago.

Sure they are, but thats a poor analogy because you are comparing it to some of the worst in the world.

I could say the same about America in its region. Sure it isn’t as bad as Mexico but not as good as Canada.

Id prefer living in Mexico however.

quote:Let’s cut the crap, we all know that if we were deported to a middle eastern country of our choice tomorrow, most of us in here would choose Israel before we choose any of the surrounding countries, knowing that it is the only place there where you have any kind of rights or democracy.

Refer to my other post about how our societies (at least Britain and the US) are becoming more like the Islamic ones. Detained without trial and shot on suspicion – soon we will be like them!

The only winner is instability.

*I’d really like you to visit a Muslim country so you could have some first hand information on it. I think you and Russ really miss out on some valuable first hand experience, not to mention empathy of any sort. Gray is a colour too.

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Sure they are, but thats a poor analogy because you are comparing it to some of the worst in the world.

And totally relevant if we are to believe that Israel is the nexus of the problems in the middle east. I sometimes look at a map and marvel at how this little nation you could practically walk across in a few hours is surrounded by millions of square miles of Arab land and that this one little dot on the map called Israel is blamed for so many problems by the Arabs. I think Arabs would better spend their energy addressing the serious issues in their own nations and not being so obsessed with Israel.

quote:
I could say the same about America in its region. Sure it isn’t as bad as Mexico but not as good as Canada.

Id prefer living in Mexico however.

You’re in the minority, but to each his own.

quote:
Refer to my other post about how our societies (at least Britain and the US) are becoming more like the Islamic ones. Detained without trial and shot on suspicion – soon we will be like them!

If you’re referring to the Brazilian man that was shot, I think it’s unfair of you to not put the situation in any context. There was a Madrid-style subway bombing, an attempted followup just a week later, and then a man wearing a heavy coat in the peak of summer comes out of a house already under surveillance for connections to terrorists, then he starts running from the cops when told to stop. Now are you going to tell me that this guy didn’t fit the profile of a terrorist? If you can’t make extrapolations based on past patterns of behavior, then what our brains for??? Suppose he was a terrorist but the cops were afraid to apprehend him and risk shooting an innocent, and then he blew up a train full of people. Then the cops would be blamed for doing nothing when they could have prevented it. And before you know it, the conspiracy theorists will come out the woodwork saying it was allowed to happen in order to justify more government surveillence.

quote:
The only winner is instability.

*I’d really like you to visit a Muslim country so you could have some first hand information on it. I think you and Russ really miss out on some valuable first hand experience, not to mention empathy of any sort. Gray is a colour too.

I will someday. Probably Egypt, Turkey or Jordan.

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quote:And totally relevant if we are to believe that Israel is the nexus of the problems in the middle east. I sometimes look at a map and marvel at how this little nation you could practically walk across in a few hours is surrounded by millions of square miles of Arab land and that this one little dot on the map called Israel is blamed for so many problems by the Arabs. I think Arabs would better spend their energy addressing the serious issues in their own nations and not being so obsessed with Israel.

I think you are right to a certain degree. In the long run it doesn’t directly impact people in Kuwait, but perhaps it does. What we are discounting is the importance of religion in the region and how important it is to all parties involved, whether they be Jew, Christian or Muslim. I am not the least bit religious, I don’t know if you are but I don’t recall you mentioning much on the subject. I think it is hard for us who don’t place much value (or in my case, any) on religion to really understand the impact it has.

Also, Israel’s presence is reatively new in the region, which is certainly a factor. The Jews and Muslims have lived peacefully together for centuries – perhaps it was the way Israel injected itself into such an important area. The Temple Mount is certainly important important to the Muslims as it is to the Jews. How would Catholics take it if St Peters was in control of a rival faith?

quote:You’re in the minority, but to each his own.

I always find it funny how many Americans so readily discount the point I previously made. If I wanted to I could smoke doobies till I was stoned enough to marry a dude, play legal mp3s at our gay wedding then get treated for anal injuries for free (tax dollars I know). I certainly don’t want to, except the first point minus the dude marrying(which I would kill for at this moment). Christ, abortion is still a big issue in your country!

Scandanavians and Canadians know that we have a lot more personal freedoms than Americans do, but this is often discounted?

Why?

quote:then a man wearing a heavy coat in the peak of summer comes out of a house already under surveillance for connections to terrorists, then he starts running from the cops when told to stop.

His only crime was against fashion. Fuck, the guy is Brazillian. When I went to Disneyworld when I was a kid, it froze that year. All the Americans were wearing toques n shit and all the people from cold countries were shorts n’ sleeves. Of course the fact that near where he lived was under surveillance certainly was a big factor, but a contributing factor in his death was what he wore. That scares me.

They weren’t done up as the old bill either.

Put yourself into the same situation. Some dudes in normal clothes come up to you in a frenzy saying they are police and shit, what would you do?

Now that you’ve thought of that, I’ll throw in the other point about him being a foreigner in a foreign country. I have a lot of experience in this regard, do you? If a bunch of Japanese in normal clothes came up to me saying they were police in normal clothes I don’t know what I would do either. Do you just believe them?

quote:And before you know it, the conspiracy theorists will come out the woodwork saying it was allowed to happen in order to justify more government surveillence.

I don’t understand why that would help unless you mean the bombing which is how Im gonna take it.

Look at what is happening now :

People can be shot on suspicion.

Phone taps may be admissable.

People can be detained without charge for longer periods.

That certainly is scary shit, and like I said before, it has more in common with what we believe happens in say, Saudi Arabia than what was the norm in western countries (America has partcipated in this longer, although Im not sure about the phone tap thing)

I don’t think it was allowed to happen, but certainly in the aftermath it makes governments keep far bigger curbs on the population.

Not a conspiracy, a fuck up.

quote:I will someday. Probably Egypt, Turkey or Jordan.

I’ve been to Bosnia, Turkey, Azerbaijan and Morocco and have never had a problem in any of them.

Turkey was the easiest country I have ever travelled in, and totally wonderful in every regard, and the people were magnificient, well in every country I mentioned above, but we met too many whores in Azerbaijan.

They thought we were oil money because no one has heard of backpackers there. Good nightlife tho.

Baku rocks!

Now, do you think that if you had a great time in a few Muslim countries you might look at the majority of people a bit better?

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"WE" don’t support Israel so unequivocally, I would say. Rich Jews with influence and power are responsible for that. I personally don’t really give a shit about Israel. Now, would I imagine, do most Americans. Within the context of the Middle East conflict though, my sympathy is more with them than with the indiscriminate, murderous weasel, baby-and-old-lady bombing, stupid fanatical religious scumbags.

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I think the problem Arabs have with the Jews is the stereotype of Jews being greedy (ie Shylock in The Merchant of Venice). This goes way back in time, to when Abraham’s younger, Jewish son deceived his father into giving him his fortune, screwing over Abraham’s older, Arab son.

To the rest of the world, the Jews are often perceived as stubborn die-hards who still believe that they received a raw deal despite being, in their own minds, the chosen people. This is why they will never let us forget about the Holocaust (and we shouldn’t forget), and this is why they feel that the only place they can ever find peace is in a land all their own (hence the birth of what today is Israel). The Jews are still pissed off that other faiths accuse them of having killed Jesus, and this again gives them the feeling of being persecuted against. I believe that many Jews feel they deserve their own land as a sort of make-good for having been blamed for everything that has ever gone bad in the world (the crucificion, the Final Solution, conspiracies about 9/11 being orchestrated by Israel, etc). They don’t want to give up Israel without a fight…and this stubbornness is perhaps mistaken by the Arabs as greediness (once again).

That’s my $0.02.

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quote:
I think the problem Arabs have with the Jews is the stereotype of Jews being greedy (ie Shylock in The Merchant of Venice). This goes way back in time, to when Abraham’s younger, Jewish son deceived his father into giving him his fortune, screwing over Abraham’s older, Arab son.

To the rest of the world, the Jews are often perceived as stubborn die-hards who still believe that they received a raw deal despite being, in their own minds, the chosen people. This is why they will never let us forget about the Holocaust (and we shouldn’t forget), and this is why they feel that the only place they can ever find peace is in a land all their own (hence the birth of what today is Israel). The Jews are still pissed off that other faiths accuse them of having killed Jesus, and this again gives them the feeling of being persecuted against. I believe that many Jews feel they deserve their own land as a sort of make-good for having been blamed for everything that has ever gone bad in the world (the crucificion, the Final Solution, conspiracies about 9/11 being orchestrated by Israel, etc). They don’t want to give up Israel without a fight…and this stubbornness is perhaps mistaken by the Arabs as greediness (once again).

That’s my $0.02.

Which just supports my point. You see, everyone is caught up in this "you support Israel or Palestinian Arabs" quagmire that sinks you in and there’s no clean way to steer yourself in the mud. It’s very hard to be an objective observer, anymore.

But, this whole problem is a self-fulfilling prophecy as well. Because Israel feels it is alone in its struggle "in the surrounding sea of violence and hatred", it easily isolates itself by its practices and beliefs. The muslims in the occupied zones feel neglected and as second class citizens. What people in this post seem to forget is, during the Middle Ages(it seems we always have to go back to the history lesson.), the Muslims dominated the Middle East. In every major city, the jews had a special place, often in high government positions and beauracracy. They were also fine merchants, oftentimes working and happily living side-by-side with their Muslim neighbors. The jews received more hostility in Europe, especially France, Italy, and Spain. So, what’s that tell you? Muslims were more tolerant(Overall. I know there were pogroms and periods of persecution, too.) than the jews are today of Palestinian arabs.

That’s where Modulis would say, "Yeah! I would be suspicious and intolerant of arabs too if they’re ready to bomb buses, baby’s and old ladies…..oh my!"(ok, along those lines, Jesus Christ! Don’t quote me there.) The point is, why are the Palestinian arabs still angry? Because there remains unresolved business in terms of proper repatriation of business, land and resources(which was robbed right under their feet), and transportation. And, everytime they wish to make some move for progress, Israel says, "Ok, but you got to do all these things first." Basically, because Israel has the trump card, and it can call all the shots.

You see, I never even brought up religion, did I? That’s because it really plays an insignificant role in the whole scheme of things. If religion was a big player, then we wouldn’t have so many powerful jews in America, or given a damn about them after the Holocaust. After all, most of us here are Christian, or of Christian background. No, so religion REALLY isn’t the key issue with the discontent between Palestinian arabs and the Israelis. It’s simply about economics; namely, capital, wealth, and water. The Zionist Movement and the powerful jewish lobby in America were the principal financiers of repatriating European/Russian jews to Israel. But that had been put on hold……….until after WWII. What better time than then to create the new Jewish state.

So, what of this endless supply of (mostly poor) young muslim men blowing themselves off in the middle of a Tel Aviv strip mall? Exactly that. Desperation, due to a lack of any real options for mobility. Either that or overdose on drugs. At least with suicide bombings, their uneducated, brain-washed minds are promised paradise in heaven. Oh, yeah, but even drugs cost money and most can’t afford to maintain a steady habit. But, making crude bombs is cheap! A quick end to a miserable life ain’t such a dreadful thought to a lot of these chaps, ya know. Thus, in a nutshell, suicide terror attacks = desperation. By the way, you never hear about the number of attempted bombers that turn yellow chicken. That’s because they take care of their own.

Talk about peer pressure.

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Okay, so we’ve firmly established why the Arabs hate the Jews and why the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a major part of the problem, but I don’t think it’s the ONLY contributing factor.

Didn’t Bin Laden say he crashed those planes into the Twin Towers because he objected to the presence of non-Muslim US Troops in the "holy land" of Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War? What does that have to do with Israel? Now we’ve gone right back to religion being one of the root causes.