You "heard" of him? He’s the commando that led the expedition. I’d think he’d be pretty famous in Norway. If it weren’t for him and his men, who knows, maybe Hitler gets the A-bomb before the war is over, and changes the outcome drastically.

Warnytoad,

How do you know if the United States is the best place in the world to grow up? Have you lived in other countries? Do you know what life is like in Germany? (You’ve never even been to Europe, so how would you know?) For me, having grown up in both the US and Western Europe (Greece and France), I can tell you that the standard of living is the same. (I was a small child when we went to Greece. Before we went, I expected it to be the way it was described to me…the way an old immigrant remembered Greece in the 1950s, only to find out that Greece in the late 1980s, early 1990s was not that different from America.)

The reason you’re saying that the United States is the "best place" is because that’s what you’re told. I’m not saying the US is a shithole. People always misinterpret me like that. What I’m saying is that the United States is only one of several 1st-world industrialized societies.

You were saying how people in Europe don’t know how Americans think, but aren’t you making assumptions (and generalizations) of how Europeans think? I think that you just read a couple posts on the first page on this thread, and jumped in too soon to add your angry, ill-informed comment. Please go back and re-read all my posts because there is a wealth of information for people like you who have litle or no knowledge on the outside world and international relations.

I’m not saying that people in Europe know everything, but seeing that this is a TRAVEL forum, we need to learn about a particular country before visiting there. What is the history of relations between that country and ours? Has our country ever been at war with them? What’s their perspective on a particular current event? Have our politicians and industrialists ever done any secret dirty things in their country to warrant anti-US scepticism? Get yourself educated, Aarnytoad.

On hope, doom, and pessimism:

Guess what Warnytoad? The United States is the one who OFTEN portrays the world in a doomed, gloomy way, and that this is why the world supposedly needs American protection and guidance. Europeans are fed doomed gloomy pictures of China and the Middle East, and that the situation is only supposed to improve if the United States has its way. Europeans and East Asians (Japan, South Korea, Thailand, etc) are constantly told that their economic systems are doomed to fail unless they adopt the American version of capitalism….all this pessimistic bullshit is going their way from the United States every single day. (And please don’t rant about how communism failed, bla bla bla….these countries are not communist. They are capitalist, but they have a different way of doing things.)

See, when you’ve lived in one corner of the world your entire life, EVERYTHING you think, believe, and know is based on what you’ve been told. Hrnytold, you do not have the experience to confirm that what you’ve been told about the outside world is right. Like I said, when you travel abroad (substantially, not 1-week trip to Cancun, or a layover in Naples with the Navy) you learn how everything you thought, felt, and beleived is only and I say ONLY your country’s perspective, not the absolute truth. People are people; we are all the same, and we interpret things the way we see them, and based on the information we are given. To believe that your country is not in any way subjected to a filtered worldview shaped by culture, environment, and authority, is extremely naive.

You are not going to "set me right on the issues." I am American-born and have lived and traveled extensively in Europe. I can honestly compare life in Europe with the United States. I also have a degree, am well-read, and have researched US foreign policy for almost 10 years. You don’t have any of the credentials I have. Therefore, please don’t attempt to "set me straight." I know much more than you on this topic.

quote:While America is quite flawed, so is every other country in the world. Do you really think other countries ( even including European countries, imagine that ) are not making constant unethical decisions? Are not terrible flawed as well?

Jana,

As I told told Warnytoad, you seriously need to go back and read this entire thread. You read only the first few posts and jumped into the discussion haphazardly, repeating things that have already been covered. Unlike the other experienced Eurotrip posters, it doesn’t bother me one bit to repeat travel advice that’s been covered in several past threads. The one thing that does piss me off, however, is when people jump into a discussion, without having read the entire thread, and start like a broken record to repeat the same things that have already been covered in that same thread.

This thread was not meant to point out all the unethical decisions the United States has ever made. It was meant to point out cultural differences as a follow-up to another thread. Because some American posters got really offended by the article, they decided to go on and on about how the United States has "saved the world." It was only in response to these comments that the rest of us pointed out that the United States has done some unethical things in pursuit of its own interests. There is no denial that other countries have done unethical things. But as I said before at least these other countries don’t claim that they’re saving the world.

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Couldn’t agree more, Dark Angel!

Hei! Da KiwiRob begynte å skrive om sitt hat mot nordmenn, bestemte jeg meg for å konfrontere ham. Dessverre har det utartet seg slik som det har, og jeg vet at det er tåpelig.

Du har deltatt i denne diskusjonen like mye og på samme måte som jeg har gjort det. Så ikke prøv å fremstå som moralens vokter.

Ha en fin dag!

Erik here’s a link to some information on Charles Upham he was widely recognised as the most outstanding soldier in WW2.

http://www.nzedge.co…

Back to the 10,262 this figure includes Norwegain merchant seamen, the figure includes all Norwegian deaths from 1939 to 1945.

quote:

quote:While America is quite flawed, so is every other country in the world. Do you really think other countries ( even including European countries, imagine that ) are not making constant unethical decisions? Are not terrible flawed as well?

Jana,

As I told told Warnytoad, you seriously need to go back and read this entire thread. You read only the first few posts and jumped into the discussion haphazardly, repeating things that have already been covered. Unlike the other experienced Eurotrip posters, it doesn’t bother me one bit to repeat travel advice that’s been covered in several past threads. The one thing that does piss me off, however, is when people jump into a discussion, without having read the entire thread, and start like a broken record to repeat the same things that have already been covered in that same thread.

This thread was not meant to point out all the unethical decisions the United States has ever made. It was meant to point out cultural differences as a follow-up to another thread. Because some American posters got really offended by the article, they decided to go on and on about how the United States has "saved the world." It was only in response to these comments that the rest of us pointed out that the United States has done some unethical things in pursuit of its own interests. There is no denial that other countries have done unethical things. But as I said before at least these other countries don’t claim that they’re saving the world.

I had read most of the thread ( what I skipped focused mainly on Norway ). But I did go back and read everything. I didn’t read the thread related to this though as I never came across it ( the one where some people claimed America saved the world and what not ). I was writing at the same time and know there are some things I touched upon that had been mentioned.

First, I stated an opinion. I don’t think I was at all rude to anyone while doing so and don’t appreciate your ( luv_the_beach ) being condescending.

And to people writing with the first thread in mind, most Americans don’t believe America has saved the world. There are constant comments made about America and Americans that are completely false and made by people who have no real knowledge of either. When people are constantly talking about how horrid this country is, of course people who know the wonderful things about America are going to be like "Hey, wait a minute…". I wish people would realize that spending a week in America and watching "Friends" on television does not make them an expert on all things American.

This thread is pure COMEDY GOLD.

America’s a lot of things but fuck, it’s home. But they seem quite fascinated by us, don’t they?

luv_the_beach use of the italic function may result in quite possibly the most condescending posting style I’ve ever read. And I’m a message board junkie. I mean, maybe the intent is not such but it just makes those as-is wordy posts unreadable. I like to read posts, but those read like an ‘I’m oh so smarter than thou and let me remind you of such in 14 to 15 concise and to the point paragrahps.’ Ouch.

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Couldn’t agree more, Dark Angel!

Hei! Da KiwiRob begynte å skrive om sitt hat mot nordmenn, bestemte jeg meg for å konfrontere ham. Dessverre har det utartet seg slik som det har, og jeg vet at det er tåpelig.

Hei Erik,

Du har deltatt i denne diskusjonen like mye og på samme måte som jeg har gjort det. Så ikke prøv å fremstå som moralens vokter.

Ha en fin dag!

Jeg har bare besvart dine hatefulle kommentarer og generaliseringer, utlending. Du vet meget godt hva jeg mener.

quote:
But they seem quite fascinated by us, don’t they?

Seems more like the other way around. If in the street where you live there was one family that made the rounds at dinnertime, checking what you eat and how you cooked it and if they approved of it, and were willing to force you to cook something else if they didn’t approve of it… Don’t you think there’d be a bit of talk among your neighbours? Would that be because you and your neighbours were fascinated by that one family, or perhaps because they stuck their nose in your business a little too often?

There just aren’t enough ten foot poles to go around, are there?

ill tell u one difference!!! you won’t see americans letting their little kids run around naked on the beach!

yuck

you’re also probably less likely to see some french/italian etc. child go and shoot up some school because he/she feels oppressed. That same child running around the beach naked is far less likely to grow up and have unwanted pregnancies and STD’s. So maybe that parent is doing something right in rearing that child. It just may not be the way you would do it.

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you’re also probably less likely to see some french/italian etc. child go and shoot up some school because he/she feels oppressed. That same child running around the beach naked is far less likely to grow up and have unwanted pregnancies and STD’s. So maybe that parent is doing something right in rearing that child. It just may not be the way you would do it.

thats cause parents like to overmedicate their kids and red staters dont like sex ed.

blue staters dont really have the teen pregnancy problem. the overmedication is a national pandemic.

we arent perfect and i agree with ur points….its just icky

Also, saves money on costly bathing suits.

True, but you have to buy more sunscreen.

whatever you do, always wear sunscreen

quote:Seems more like the other way around. If in the street where you live there was one family that made the rounds at dinnertime, checking what you eat and how you cooked it and if they approved of it, and were willing to force you to cook something else if they didn’t approve of it… Don’t you think there’d be a bit of talk among your neighbours? Would that be because you and your neighbours were fascinated by that one family, or perhaps because they stuck their nose in your business a little too often?

Uh, no. I seriously doubt the big bad USA is sticking its nose in you or your countrymen’s business in any way resembling that. If it was I think your problems are a bit deeper than us. Silly analogy.

blameshifter,

Try living abroad for a while (and follow the news while you’re there), and you’ll see what Dark Angel is talking about. The State Department’s annual reports on the state of "human rights" in every country on the planet, and congressional committee discussions on sanctions for various nation-states, is just a taste of what D.A. is talking about. (And, not surprisingly, these are politically motivated. Saudi Arabia rarely even gets a slap on the wrist by the Department). The level of nosiness goes beyond "human rights" through the State Dept, and extends to economic systems and policies (via World bank and IMF, both US-based); trade, industry, and copyright practices (via the WTO, NAFTA, and APEC); military systems and poltical systems (via UN, NATO, OAS, and bi/multi-lateral relations), and so on. D.A.‘s analogy was dead on.

quote: I seriously doubt the big bad USA is sticking its nose in you or your countrymen’s business in any way resembling that.

Doubt doesn’t constitute certainty.

Obviously you didn’t take my statements about using italics to heart, did you?

PS I’ve lived outside of the USA over half my life.

Hei Erik og KiwiRob!
Det e jo bra dokker vett sjøl at det e litt teit det dokker holde på med. Dokker får jo folk te å tro nordmenn e rarere enn me e jo, någe så ikkje så veldigt nødvendigt!
God påske ska dokker ha adle samen uansett!

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blameshifter,

Try living abroad for a while (and follow the news while you’re there), and you’ll see what Dark Angel is talking about. The State Department’s annual reports on the state of "human rights" in every country on the planet, and congressional committee discussions on sanctions for various nation-states, is just a taste of what D.A. is talking about. (And, not surprisingly, these are politically motivated. Saudi Arabia rarely even gets a slap on the wrist by the Department). The level of nosiness goes beyond "human rights" through the State Dept, and extends to economic systems and policies (via World bank and IMF, both US-based); trade, industry, and copyright practices (via the WTO, NAFTA, and APEC); military systems and poltical systems (via UN, NATO, OAS, and bi/multi-lateral relations), and so on. D.A.‘s analogy was dead on.

quote: I seriously doubt the big bad USA is sticking its nose in you or your countrymen’s business in any way resembling that.

Doubt doesn’t constitute certainty.

it should be noted that europenas play a huge role in those institutions you talk about. The US for example is a very "we hate the un mode" and does little to help them.

IMF, WTO, World Bank are european institutions too. A european heads the IMF. if its actual location means that its an instrument of that country, then the WTO must be a tool of the swiss

quote:it should be noted that europenas play a huge role in those institutions you talk about. The US for example is a very "we hate the un mode" and does little to help them.

These are multilateral institutions where membership is seen as a necessity, not as a voluntary ideological movement. Case in point: WTO and NATO. And when I say necessity: not because of the dangers that the institutions warn us of, but because of the status quo that the institutions themselves are creating. Thus, it’s a self-fulfilling prophecy, forcing many countries into a situation where they must inevitably join and conform. As the most powerful and influential country, the United States or at least those who run the United States has the means to pull the strings. Any Europeans with high level positions in such institutions are those whose practices and ideologies do not deviate from the status quo.

quote:IMF, WTO, World Bank are european institutions too. A european heads the IMF. if its actual location means that its an instrument of that country, then the WTO must be a tool of the swiss

As I said in the above paragraph.

Furthermore, it’s not location, but which state has the most influence in such institutions. You’ve misinterpreted my post as alleging these institutions to be purely American. On the contrary, they are multilateral. However, as Washington never openly admits, they are used as tools by their most powerful member to implement certain global policies, and there’s nothing that can be done to balance this. (Yes, even the UN. There may be an anti-UN sentiment in Washington, as well an anti-UN fervor among the American public, but UN policies, institutions, and resolutions are still quoted/used in pursuit of certain agendas, just as UN resolution was quoted for justification to invade Iraq, despite UN opposition. It’s funny how the system works.) In addition, many such institutions were created or gained momentum because of undeclared visions by the ruling elite of the more powerful member states, first and foremost the United States. Regarding trade and politics, similar parallel insititutions existed during the Cold War, headed by the USSR. This is not about the United States being "the big bad wolf" or the "Great Satan." This is about corporations and economic interests using the human and financial resources of the most influential and powerful member of these multilateral institutions (the United States) in order to implement policies that are not necessarily beneficial to the world (as they claim), nor to the American poeple. (Nor to the country of the United States with the exception of nationalist intentions some of the elite may have). And in doing this, those who run the institutions have managed whether directly or indirectly to foster American public support. In turn, what nations around the world see happening to them is heavy American instruction on their domestic affairs…something that would deeply offend Americans if it happened to them. (Granted, the level of such involvement varies from country to country.) As long as the bulk of ordinary Americans experience only the softer side of the [global] difficult times ahead, and/or as long as the culture allows for anti-worker abuse to happen (growing work weeks for American workers), the American electorate will continue to support the system and equate support for this new world order with &quotatriotism," thus maintaining a cultural environment in which such global corporate strategies thrive and are inevitably implemented around the world. It’s twisted, but it’s real, and it’s scary.

Are you still obsessing about America luvthebeach? Man let this thread die already! Have you been to America? Americans are great people with our own culture. I love Europe and frequent it. Guess what? I respect every culture I visit. Quit pissing on my country already!

Obviously you didn’t read any of my posts. Either that, or you didn’t understand them. No sense in arguing with you.

Really? How so? Funny I post my post and you reply in 20 seconds. I think you are obsessed. Have you been to America? I respect your cultures- you respect mine

As I said. OBVIOUSLY YOU DIDNT READ ANY OF MY POSTS OR YOU DIDN’T UNDERSTAND THEM.

Go back and re-read the 2 or 3 times when I mentioned that I am AMERICAN-BORN and live in the United States, and go back and re-read the part where I mentioned that I am NOT pissing on America. I am pissing on the corporate interests that are taking advantage of America AND the world, and I am pissing on the poeple who think that it’s patriotic to support this.

Plain English, just for you.

I also happened to be online the same time as you.

Please quite editing your posts after you post them. Your last two posts you edited while I was trying to respond. Let me know what post I am responding to please. Anyways this type of post I dont care for-

"No, alphuris. People are only trying to disprove your arrogant claims that the US is 1st or 2nd. No one is blaming the US for not being 1st. They’re just sick and tired of Americans assuming that the US is 1st, and then flaunting it."

We gave $650 million to the tsunami victims. WTF? I agree the USA has flaws but so does every nation. Many, many are much more flawed then the USA-it just happens the USA is under the microscope more. Anyways I thought I was on the Favorite Places thread. I dont care to hear someones simplistic political views here. BTW I loved Berlin and Rome- I say those were my favorite places. Lets get this back on course

Luv the beach,

I read your post last night but only now have a chance to respond. I got the impression that basically you were saying that the US just bullied everyone into joining these organizations. That europeans have no choice but to join nato, imf, the bank, or the wto. Now I am not republican, nor am I one of those rabid nationalist americans nor amd I a fan of any of those organizations but, seriously, what you said, was such a load of crap I couldn’t even believe it. Its got so little grounding in reality- your dumping sole blame on the states. We aren’t perfect and we have used our economic/political clout to push things around but european nations are right there with us.

Europeans have also given up power to the same powerful organizations and multinational corporations that the states has. Learn some history- the europeans (and i mean nations/government) were huge propenets of the IMF, World Bank, were instrumental in drafting up the WTO, and believe more in multinational orgs like nato or the un than the US does.

In fact, it is a european who head the IMF. The same organization whose "strategic adjustment plans" are the primary cause of 3rd indebtedness. The EU are some of the opponanets of reducing farm subsidies to allow 3rd world produce. the EU has taken more action through the WTO against the states than that states has. EU nations are the same countries that sell weapons and supplies to terrorists nations—-france and oil for food scandel. Even kofi came out against that whole mess.

The bretton woods agreement was signed with Europe nations affter ww2. European nations werent bullied into joining anything and they love these institutions just as much as the US does.

I have no idea where you live but your observences about Americans and their perception of these organizations is a little off. We have the normal fare of anti-globalization people but mainstream America, knows very little of these organizations, and when they do find out about them, don’t like them. "Out sourcing" is a huge topic in this country right now. Many Americans don’t like the IMF, the bank, or the WTO. Turn on CNN and Lou Dobbs and this all they talk about it. They even talk on that crappy station called fox.

Your preception that the us was the sole bully in all of this is so far out of wack, I don’t even know where you got it.

For those who find the dinner-analogy silly – well maybe it is a little. And as long as you don’t cook anything your neighbours don’t approve of… and maybe you kind of have the same taste in some things anyway, neither of you like lasagne, so the dinnerchecks don’t really bother you.

Until you differ in opinion. Say, there’s a street barbeque and those neighbours insist there only be steak. Now some people might be partial to, you know, some pork chops or something. There’s a vote, but the neighbours let it be known that everybody not voting in favour of the steak is Against them, and there will be Repercussions.

Sounds like a whole lot of fun. Still not thinking of moving?

ctnightowl and keppiezbt,

Once again, you guys have repeated things that were already covered and addressed. Simplistic, ctnightowl, is when you keep repeating the same points over and over again, without acknowledging what else has been said. Amazingly, you managed this senseless repetition even after inserting one of my quotes into your post. As I said, no one cares whether or not the US is number one in aid. Let’s just stop pretending that we are, and if we’re going to be so bitter about it, then let’s not give any aid at all. That the United States has flaws just like all other countries is a fundamental aspect that I pointed out several posts ago in reponse to some of the natioalist posters, yet you parade on here is if it was your original peace-making conclusion. Again, you’re repeating what’s already been covered several posts ago, and giving yourself an undeserved pat on the back.

Keppiezbt, again, repetition, repetition, repetition. My posts are "crap" so long as you continue to misunderstand them and/or haphazardly skim through them. I said in my post: many nations are forced to join this organizations out of necessity because of the global environment that these organizations are creating. I never specified "European" nations, although this does include countries on the European continent. (Not all European countries are major powers like Britain and France. Romania, for example, applied to join NATO not for ideological reasons, but they were forced to, because it’s the only way they’ll get more foreign direct investment.). Furthermore, once again, you repeated something that was already addressed. As I said in my post (and it flew over your head), these multilateral organizations were created by the particpation of several nations, but are now often used as a tool by the United States to implement global policies in favor of a handful of powerful people and entities who have a lot of influence in Washington. It may not be the United States itself per se, but mulitnational corporations and lobbies that have tremendous power in Washington, and their unholy alliances with ordinary Americans who either think it’s patriotic to support this new world order, or are ignorant of various aspects of it (most Americans are a combination of these two; they work well together). I’m not saying the rest of the world is a lot more knowledgable, but at least people in many other countries are more likely to critically analyze what they’re told by authority, not accept it unconditionally (I said many, not all other countries). As long as mainstream Americans continue to support this order (65% of Americans bought the WMD story, despite a long history of politicians lying to them), and as long as American culture continues to fit nicely into this global agenda mold (refusing to work overtime is seen as "lazy&quot, then nothing is going to change.