I think Helsinki is the worst capital for travelling.. not much to do, expensive (especailly the drinks!) and very drab

I wasn’t blown away by Dublin (although I enjoyed Ireland in general). Not a horrible place by any means, but it’s sightseeing just isn’t on par with that of many other European capitals.

On the other hand, the capital cities of Berlin and Paris both exceeded my expectations for their incredible history (Berlin), scenery (Paris), and museums (both).

Rome,

if it wasn’t for the Vactian, would there be any reason to go ??

Nightlife is non-existant, pubs are crap, Italian men are sleazy hence there’s no skirt out on the streets after dark.

Totally rubbish!

Buchuresti is magic, where else can you get a pint for 30 cents ???

I have to agree about Helsinki. Boring, boring, boring – unless you have an interest in churches… and even then it’s hardly interesting.

Was not impressed with Brussels

this summer i will be ravleing to europe for the first time and plan on on most of my stops being in capitals with the exception of nice and barcelona, i am only doing this because i plan to go back again and explore smaller cities, good plan or no?

I disagree about Warsaw. That is actually one of the few capital cities (next to Berlin and Belgrade) that would be on top of my recommended list for its country. Of course there are many other interesting places to visit in Poland, like the High Tatra mountains, or Lower Silesia, or Kazimierz Dolny, or Torun, …

My least favourite capital cities would be:
– Paris; alternative: Britanny’s my favourite region in France, especially the Morbihan coast around Vannes, and Nantes
– Brussels; I would only recommend going there if you’re planning a longer stay in Belgium – if not, the 3 big Flemish cities (Antwerp, Gent, Brugge) are all better options; there are smaller places in Flanders that are worth a visit too, e.g. Tongeren, Ieper or De Haan; and the Ardennes are definitely a must if you’re into outdoorsy stuff or picturesque towns, castles, etc.
– Budapest; I’m not a big fan of Hungary overall, but I liked Sopron, lake Velence, Szentendre and Szeged
– Moscow; there’s a lot to see, but I don’t think it makes a good first impression of Russia; alternatives: I haven’t been anywhere else in European Russia, but in Siberia I would especially recommend Ulan Ude (imho much more interesting than Irkutsk, the more obvious choice near lake Baikal)

For me:

Budapest (not a fan here…..I just don’t get what others see in it, but I’ve tried like 3 times now

Helsinki (yeah, wow, just a LITTLE boring)

Riga (not my favourite Baltic city at all, just seemed too cold and unfriendly for me) It prob. didn’t help that when we were there we saw a latvian girl (possible a prostitute, not sure) slapped by a man on the street, and then inappropriatly touched

Bucharest is the only city where I was so unimpressed that I’d advise others to avoid it. There are other parts of Romania that are delightful, though.

Copenhagen and Budapest would be on my "been there, done that, I’m not really interested in going again" list. I feel the same about Vienna and Paris, but that’s after multiple visits.

I can’t believe you’d mention about Vienna up there. Meh, well, I guess I should go and have a look myself. Headed to Germany this Friday, you guys. Ciao!

"- Moscow; there’s a lot to see, but I don’t think it makes a good first impression of Russia; alternatives: I haven’t been anywhere else in European Russia,"

….then how do you know it doesn’t make a good first impression of European Russia if you havn’t been anywhere else?

"Buchuresti is magic, where else can you get a pint for 30 cents ???"

Anywhere else in Romania! In fact most of the bars in Central Buchuresti tend to be more expensive in line with the practice in other capital cities. When I was there in 2003, 30000 lei – about 70 to 80 cents and probably more now. Slovakia was also as cheap but I haven’t been since 2002 so I don’t know how joining the EU has affected things.

Dublin and Brussels. Didn’t hate them, but to me, neither one measures up to what most of the other towns, cities, villages, in their respective countries have to offer.

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"- Moscow; there’s a lot to see, but I don’t think it makes a good first impression of Russia; alternatives: I haven’t been anywhere else in European Russia,"

….then how do you know it doesn’t make a good first impression of European Russia if you havn’t been anywhere else?

Moscow’s just too unfriendly and overwhelming for a first stop in a new country. The vast majority of people I met outside of Moscow (including on the train from Moscow to Novosibirsk) were very friendly, the vast majority of people I met in Moscow weren’t. I never said the word "European" in my first sentence, did I? Though I’m still convinced there must be more welcoming places in European Russia as well. I spent 8 weeks in Russia, but other than the first 4 days they were all in Asian Russia. I don’t know if there’s a strong opposition between the 2 continents though, Novosibirsk (where I studied for a month) actually had a much more western feel than Moscow did (minus McDonalds).

I’m pretty sure that many people have "bad" impressions of a particular city because they didn’t know the city well enough to know where to go and what to do.

Madrid vs. Barcelona. I love both of these cities. I’ve heard people moan about one and love the other. Both are awesome.

People have opinions, but you can’t really live by them. You may different tastes and/or experiences. Athens is an excellent example. Most backpackers’ impressions of the city come from the seedy area near the train station and near the Hostel Aphrodite. Very few visit normal parts of the city, including the coast, the beaches, the renovated old quarters (like Thesseio), the very modern north suburbs, and so on…

Seraphim, how "unfriendly’ were the poeple in Moscow? I’m asking this because I’m suspecting that you’re asking too much of a large mega city like Moscow.

Big cities will be big cities. I’m a big city person, and unlike most other travelers, I think that you can get a feel of the "real" country tight there in the big city. The big city is a part of that country after all. Neither the city, nor a rural town, will give you an oveall picture of the entire country.

Vienna —- me and the backpackers I was with all had a general bad vibe about the place and found the day we spent there very dry and steral. We had planned to stay for 2-3 days and opted to leave the next morning for Budapest.

Athens —- a must stop for the Acropolis and all that but you don’t need to spend more than a day there. It’s urban and for the most part slummy

Brussles —- though didn’t give it much of a chance, it seemed boring and really had nothing that jumped out to me to see. Brugges is the way to go in Belgium…alos Numur was ok but wouldn’t waste a day there unless you have a lot of time to kill in Europe (4-5 months)

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Athens —- a must stop for the Acropolis and all that but you don’t need to spend more than a day there. It’s urban and for the most part slummy

See? This is exactly what I was talking about. This backpacker never left the seedy areas around the train station and along the valley’s industrial western areas (including Piraeus), where backpackers tend to congregate. (Nor did this poster read my post before his). It’s like judging New York by visiting only the Statue of Liberty and Newark. Few backpackers if any wander into the normal parts of the city.

You just can’t rely on poeple’s opinions for such matters, because poeple’s experiences are not thorough enough to give you a proper synopsis of a particular city.

I walked all over Athens and I didn’t like it either.

I totally agree with luv_the_beach. Most places have a lot to offer if only we take the time to look carefully.

I love Athens (the weather! the people! the shopping! the nightlife! the beaches! the food!) and quite like Brussels (the beer! the chocolate! Mini Europe! Bruxelles Les Bains! the summer funfair!) and that’s without taking into account the Acropolis, the Plaka, the Grand Place, the tapis des fleurs.

But I stand by my vote for Helsinki – it’s just dire, esp. at winter time. Perhaps it’s bearable in summer, but having been three times in winter, I’m not motivated enough to visit in summer (sorry Finn people).

Since I was born and lived in Riga, I would naturally disagree that it qualifies as the worst capital city in Europe

Things to do in Riga:
1. Walk in Vecriga (The Old City) – it’s a very compact and interesting place with numerous recently restored/cleaned-up buildings dating back to 13th century.
2. Take the elevator to the top of Church of St. Peter for a great panorama of the city
3. See Riga Dom Cathedral with its third-largest-in-the-world Organ http://www.lmuza.lv/organ/organs/Riga_Dom.html
4. Have a lunch at Lido that serves delicious home-style food http://ac.lido.lv/
5. Stroll through Central Market and try local offerings. Central Market’s pavilions are housed in five huge hangars build for Zeppelins during World War I.
6. Relax at one of many local “kafejnicas” with a cup of coffee and yummy fresh pastry.
7. Take a 35-minute train to Jurmala for a half-day trip to beaches with their very fine sand, dunes, and sea breeze. Walking barefoot in inches-deep waters of the shallow Bay of Riga will reenergize you on your trip.
8. At night visit one of the several local clubs that are on par with clubs in many major North American cities.

There’s plenty to do in Riga for at least one full day.

I agree with much of what was said about Helsinki, FIN – earlier… It’s a very drab, yet expensive town… I hear ditto for the Capital of Iceland.. A bit more to see & do, but too pricey! I also think Paris and London – great cities, with alot to see… However, very hard on the wallet, especially London… I also agree with earlier comments about Dublin – but I would base that just on what I have read & heard from other experienced travelers, etc. I have yet to go there, but Galway sounds like a better deal & more fun than Dublin…

I cannot say that Madrid, ESP is one of the "worst" in Europe… I liked it, but I would much rather spend any real allotment of time in Barcelona…

Luv the beach, you’re right, people in Moscow behaved as one would expect people in a big city to do. And I don’t really like big cities, with some exceptions (see my first post). I guess my point is that it’s hard enough to adapt to Russian culture and face the challenge of buying train tickets etc. for the first time without having to do it in an overwhelming, unfriendly place like Moscow. Anywhere else in Russia, I got unexpected help from complete strangers quite often, but in Moscow you really can’t expect that, so it just isn’t the best place to start. Novosibirsk is huge too (1,5 million inhabitants), but it was a totally different experience. Maybe that’s because they aren’t so used to tourists there so they don’t feel the need to be all snobby towards foreigners. When I went to a party in Akademgorodok (the university quarter of Novosibirsk, where I lived for a month), we met a guy who told us we were the first foreigners he ever met, with the exception of his Japanese American English teacher.

quote:

quote:
Athens —- a must stop for the Acropolis and all that but you don’t need to spend more than a day there. It’s urban and for the most part slummy

See? This is exactly what I was talking about. This backpacker never left the seedy areas around the train station and along the valley’s industrial western areas (including Piraeus), where backpackers tend to congregate. (Nor did this poster read my post before his). It’s like judging New York by visiting only the Statue of Liberty and Newark. Few backpackers if any wander into the normal parts of the city.

You just can’t rely on poeple’s opinions for such matters, because poeple’s experiences are not thorough enough to give you a proper synopsis of a particular city.

Well I just wrote a long winded reply to this that got erased but here it goes again short version.

Your right few backpackers do wander away from the city centers or major attractions because of time. If someone has alot of time to kill in a city then certainly advice them on some of the simpler attractions of the city. However most backpackers have very limited time and to fluff a city for a simple beach thats 10 k away or a nice area to stroll through 20 minutes + away by bus is an injustice to travelers. It takes away from greater experiences in Greece like an extra island to jump to or going to climb Mt. Olympus.
Every city has it good points but to fluff a city to the point where people visit or plan on more time then most backpackers would need is irresponsible.

I did read your post above but disagree with it. It’s trumped up advice like that that cost people time and take away from more valuable experiences.

Your right opinions are opinions but that is what people seek here. They have guide books that give them the basics but they want personal experience and tips that aren’t in the book. To devalue my opinion and infer my ignorance is in insult. You are a value to the board but you get carried away in your Guruism.

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It takes away from greater experiences in Greece like an extra island to jump to or going to climb Mt. Olympus.
Every city has it good points but to fluff a city to the point where people visit or plan on more time then most backpackers would need is irresponsible.

It depends on what you’re looking for, surely? "An extra island to jump to" does nothing for me. Not too keen on climbing Olympus either. Brugges was nice, but too pretty and way too touristy. I’ve no interest in going back, but I’ve been back to Brussels 3 times.

Perhaps I’m biased, but I like big cities. I like to see how the locals live, not climb mountains and visit party islands. When I go to a country I’ve never been to before, I like to see the cities, not the resorts. I like to shop where the locals do, check out the supermarkets, swim where they swim, eat what they eat. But perhaps that’s me. There’s no need for anyone to follow my lead. You go to Ios – the less backpackers get in my way when I go shopping on Ermou st, the better!

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I walked all over Athens and I didn’t like it either.

MissBridgetJones

I understand you have been "all over" Athens, but Tinsie and I have both lived there. I know the areas where backpackers tend to congregate, and many of them are areas that Athenians themselves prefer to avoid (like the area near the train station where Hostel Aphrodite is, or around Plateía Karaïskáki red light district). As I said earlier, it would be like judging New York by visiting only Newark and the Statue of Liberty. I am still skeptical over how much of the city you have seen and would be more than happy to draw you an itinerary should you ever re-visit the city. Both you and I -for all intents and purposes should also admit that the city has changed tremendously in the past 10 years let alone the past 3 years. I realize it’s not like Rome -and it may not be like Sydney but for me at least, coming from the US, it’s not that different from [the larger] US cities. In fact, it’s often compared to Los Angeles, and I strongly agree with that comparison. (Actually, it’s like a cross between L.A. and New York).

bamjoker,

There’s no need to get offended, and please don’t perceive me as condescending toward you. As you said yourself, my opinion is my opinion, so don’t get so upset about it. That said, your opinion is also just your opinion, and I do have the right to disagree with it, and to post my disagreement right here on a travel forum where we influence people’s trips. I haven’t always liked Athens, I used to dislike it too (before the city underwent major changes). But to say that Athens is "slummy" is by far an inaccurate description. If you want to know what a slum really is (makeshift/flimsy poorhouses with no running water, no electricity, and no sewers), you should visit Calcutta or the favelas of Rio de Janeiro; no part of Athens fits this description. The supposed "slummy" areas of western/southwestern Athens (the neighborhoods where you were) are no different than America’s inner cities; yes, they are bad, unattractive areas, but they are not "slummy." I won’t delve into the massive positive changes the city has experienced in recent years (nor the aesthetically disappointing 1960s architecture that has left its ugly mark in large sections of the city to this day) but I will say that judging the city by visiting the industrial/warehouse/train-station western and southwestern areas alone is doing the city injustice. If you didn’t have the time to see other parts of the city, then you should admit this when giving people advice on Athens…instead, you’re basing your judgement on a very limited experience, and then you’re placing blame on the city. You’re entitled not to like Athens, but calling it "slummy" is completely inaccurate; that’s the only reason why I’m spending so much time responding to you. If you had made a more legitimate complaint like the city’s air pollution then I wouldn’t have said anything, because that would have been true.

I’m not offended in the least…The insult was assuming my ignorance of other parts of the city or having not read your post.
I however have had the chance to see the city and do not have limited experience. That what the point of my reply before that, any city has its good points but for the majority of backpackers there are certain things they want to see and certain places they will be staying. Where they will stay is pretty run down and urban with no interesting architectural points. There is a general drab vibe and limited recreation within the backpackers’ general area.
If backpackers have extra time to kill or backpackers like yourself and Tinsie like to absorb the whole of a city and really jump into it, then of course you’re going to find things you like. As you would in about any city in the world.
However most backpackers are like my self and would like them to know that there is very little of interest to see in Athens beyond a day, maybe two. I don’t think Athens is a bad city simply one that is not worth much time spent there in lue of other places.

Trust me I don’t mean to stamp on your home guys. When you live somewhere of course your going to see it different and know all the little places. I know if i’m in a city long enough I start looking for those little things but its very rare in my experiance to stay any where for that long while backpacking. I my self loved the hell out of Prague but only stayed there for 4 days because i saw the main points I wanted to see and had many other places I wanted to go. I would love to sit in that city for months just learning the streets, small hangouts, and history but I would have not got to see if I liked other cities like Barcelona, Madrid, Marakesh. For the majority of backpackers I have met in my travels time was very limited and you might not ever get back, so we cover as much ground as we can while still getting an idea on the city.

I know you guys are very well travled and have alot more time to go indepth into the cities but most can’t.

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I know you guys are very well travled and have alot more time to go indepth into the cities but most can’t.

Actually, this is a matter of choice and you shouldn’t assume that everyone thinks the same. I’ve been to a lot less places than most people on this forum, but the places I’ve been to I know well. I have chosen to spend longer in cities because that’s what I like doing – island hopping isn’t my thing. I can see that my views are different to the average packpacker’s, but surely there’s room for all of us here? In fact, I’d say it’s no bad thing to challenge the prevailing view that wants Athens to be bypassed in favour of Ios or the Pink Palace…

I take your point that perhaps luv and I feel strongly about Athens coz it’s been our home, but I’ve never lived in Brussels and still feel defensive when others rubbish it! I think when you’ve been happy somewhere, when you’ve found the hidden treasures that make it special (and I have been really happy in both Athens and Brussels) you want others to see what you’ve seen – if that makes sense?

But Athens doesn’t have any "hidden" trasures. Travel east, north, and south of the usual backpackers area, and you’ll see that it’s a normal city….all out in the open. Nothing hidden. You don’t have to spend much time in Athens to see the normal parts. Being a backpacker with just a couple days in Athens is no excuse to confine yourself in the wrong areas. The reason backapckers go to the wrong areas has nothignt to do with time constraints, and everything to do with the fact that they don’t know where to go. Thus, this is where Tinsie and I come in. It takes just as much effort to go to the right areas as it does to go to the wrong areas. Just avoid spending time in the following areas:

the shady western section of central Athens (even though there’s a few good hotels here), including everything west of Plateía Omónoias (including areas adjacent to Omónoia, and nearby Plateía Karaïskáki -red light district and the area near the train station). These are areas that Athenians avoid at night.
-Further west of this area is an industrial zone with absolutely nothing to see
-Piraeus and everything between Piraeus and the city of Athens (old warehouses, abandoned buildings, and industry)

Where to be:
-the historical center (the renovated 19th-century areas of Pláka and Thesseío and their beautifully restored neoclassical buildings, plus art galleries, cafes, restaurants, the National Cathedral [Mitropoli], and ruins including the the Agora and the Roman Forum.)
-areas adjacent to the Acropolis (including the area south of the Acropolis), beautifully renovated for the 2004 Olympics, and the pedestrianized (and brick-layed) Dionysíou Aeropagítou avenue, as well as summer peformances in the ancient Theater of Iródiou Attikoú (Herod Atticus).
-the bohemian (but very touristy) Monastiráki area
the "triangle" formed by Monastiráki, Sýntagma, and Omónoia squares (but as I said, not west of Omónoia) which houses several grand neoclassical buildings built when Athens became the national capital in the mid-19th century (The Akademía, National Library, National Historical Museum -aka the Old Parliament etc, and renovated Plateía Kotziá flanked by its own restored neoclassical buildings).
-everything east of Sýntagma including the National Gardens, Zappeio Palace, Zappeio Gardens, the ancient Panathenaic Stadium, Temple of Olympian Zeus, Hadrian’s Arch, and all the normal residential neighborhoods, including some American-style pubs and restaurants along Leofóros Vassilissis Sofías (Queen Sophia Blvd.)
-further out: the north, northeast, east, southeast, and south-central suburbs, includuing the coast renovated for the 2004 Olympics. Also, further north of the National Archaeological Museum, along Odós Patission are the same stores as the ones on Ermoú, minus the tourists and the crowds.

I appreciate that long list of things to look for in Athens. I haven’t been there yet, but at least I have an idea what to look for now.

For some people (not everyone), I think the low quality of backpacker options in a particular city, in terms of location or quality or both, can tend to make people not like it, whereas they would like it if they were able to stay in a slightly nicer place in a slightly nicer area. I suspect Copenhagen and Rome are two cities (among many) in this category, and although I haven’t been there it sounds like Athens might be too.

Traveler, just don’t go to Athens for the architecture…

Luv, I disagree. Every city had hidden treasures. One that I discovered in Athens fairly recently is a trendy rooftop bar/restaurant in Monastiraki. You can sit out there in the warm summer night and have dinner at 2 AM with the city lights spread around you and the illuminated Acropolis opposite.

I tell you, it doesn’t get much more perfect than that – if you’re a city person.

the only country that i have been to in europe has been italy. i was only there for about 2.5 weeks so keep in mind i only did the touristy things. i really wasnt fond of rome for those few days that i was there. would have loved to have spent more in the cinque terre, florence, or umbria.

In Europe I have been to London, Paris, Amsterdam,Copenhagen,Rome and live in Dublin. I like all the vibes, every city has its downsides, but a lot of them surprise you. I thought Copenhagen was going to be dull, since i was there in November, but they actually have a really good shopping district, nightlife, a good park (forget the name) and history! It was a great place. And Rome, I thought I was going to be bored with a lot of the old architecture since I like modern style better, but the piazzas and everything else just amazed me!! I haven’t really been to the boring places I guess. I know a few of you are saying that Dublin didn’t do much for you, and usually I would object to that, and I only kind of am. Seeing the sights in Dublin might be a little I don’t know, boring! But when you live in Dublin it’s a whole lot better! The nightlife is great, the people are great fun (except the knackers, try and avoid them) and everything is better! And I know a lot of people who experience THAT Dublin and would agree with me!